Abortion statistics

[musica]

Just read that one in five pregnancies nationally end in abortion, and in London it is one in THREE! Surely this is not good!

This is the relevant story

Sort of JimJams. When I was 18 I did a training course at a big company and we all had to do a 20 minute presentation on anything we wanted so long as it wasn't politics or religion.

One guy who was very religious did a presentation on abortion - with a very Pro-Life stance. He showed a video of a late termination which was horrific. Imagine seeing that when after lunch at a big IT company you are expecting something about someone's hobby.

I didn't actually watch the video - stared at the floor. But I glimpsed odd images and this stayed with me and was I'm sure a factor in me not having a termination.

Might be quite a good thing to show serial terminators?

where does this policy work on disability? My Mum had a child with CF, she was cherished and precious. I feel awful writing this but me and my mum did not want to have a another, in my mums case a child in my case a child with CF. It is an awful illness. My sister had it bad. She was SO clever, got the best grades in her year for her GCSE's. She was such a capable young woman, but life was never going to be hers. In academic terms she could have done xyz, practically all her fight was for life.

There is ALOT more to this story. But to see a child suffer how my sister did is cruel. My Mum blamed herself for how she was. Imagine your own child lying there....how would you feel?

Stop and look at peoples feelings. If you knew them, knew what they had gone through, you would understand. I dont know whether to post this or not - should I?

Everyone is allowed their own decisions in life. I have always been headstrong and made my own way, I may be judged for it but I wouldnt want a child with CF even though I loved my sister with all of my heart, sorry sis.

sorry if this has offended people. I have always regretted posting things that were so close to me

CF=cystic fibrosis btw

Personally I think on disability it is clearer cut. Some people feel able to bring up a disabled child and could never have a termination. Others don't feel they would be in any way capable and might resent the child. Others have personal experience (either way) and this colours their attitude.

For any of these people I would defend their right to choose and would not judge or comment - but would give support and sympathy.

It's the ones who act irresponsibly I have a problem with.

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sorry if I have killed the thread! will bugger off now... ( I havent even gone into part2 next)

Twinkie, if, as you say, it is a baby as soon as it is concieved (and this is not my viewpoint), then you run the risk of repeated 'terminations' by using the coil as your chosen form of contraception. The coil does not prevent the joining of egg and sperm, but prevents it from implanting in the womb. Effectivly it stops the foetus developing further. I know that you say you don't think of it is a termination, but that is how it works.

Fio I think its really hard. Before having a disabled child I would have defended anyone's right to terminate a severely disabled child. I still do. The problem is in so many cases the effect of the disability cannot be determined in utero. Your sister's case sounds awful, but there are people out there with CF who live near normal lives. So many cases of disability are like that. For something like trisomy 13 I guess the decision is a bit easier- because you can have a very clear idea that you are terminating a very severe disabiloity. But for other disabilities it must be so hard- as something like spina bifida shows such a range. It was after I met someone with spina bifida who seemed hardly affected at all (she walked with a slight limp) that I realised that I personally couldn't terminate for spina bifida. I still think that when a problem is revealed people are presented with the worst case scenario "this child with never do x, y or z" so of course they become scared "oh how will I cope?" My view is that the majority of people do cope (and I'm not talking about very severe disabilities like trisomy 13- but more middle of the road stuff).

I do think people should receive a great deal of counselling before making a decision on whether to continue with a pregnacy that would result in a disabled child. I can't help but imagine how awful I would have felt if I had terminated for spina bifida and then met my friend with the limp. I think I would always have been left with a 'what if'.

jimjams - THANK YOU. If you had of met my sister you would have thought ...so what!.. she was beautiful, didnt seem disabled and was , so,so clever. I am not saying that because she was my sister...it is true. I now of kids with CF who are mildly affected. My sister, or my mum&dad were told she would die before 7 it was that bad

She proved the dr's wrong but it was awful to watch. Not just the sufferring but the mental cruelty, it was horrible/ I remember her last x-ray before she died, she KNEW what was happenning - she was 21! I cant explain it. I am most probably too emotional, sorry

I think there is a difference fio2 if a disability leads to death and involves suffering when compared to one which just ivolves a different life to that planned iyswim. At least it would in any decision I had to make. I can't imagine anything worse than watching a child die, and suffer in the meatime as well, just awful awful awful.

Thanks for posting with such honesty, Fio2.

I think using a coil is tantamount to having a monthly abortion, too, Pie, yet another reason I didn't like my coil.

Actually, my feelings have changed about abortion, too, since becoming a mother. Still "pro-choice", but my personal comfort threshold for 'on-demand' has dropped to 16 weeks. But I wouldn't want to decide for others.

This came to a head when a friend felt compelled to get an abortion, in spite of the fact that she was very anti-, and then realised she was already 18 weeks. She was in agony & didn't know what to do..... She kept the baby, in spite of very unideal circumstances. But has dropped friendship with all of us in her old crowd who knew her dilemna... It's very sad. I reckon she thinks we must judge her for nearly aborting, but what we really think is "There but for the Grace..."

I don't think having a coil is like an abortion to be honest- wouldn't destroying IVF embryos be an abortion of sorts under that definition. I agree that my cut off had reduced since having children. I cannot imagine having to abort a child I had felt move- there are circumstances where I would- but I think it would have to involve certain death of the child iyswim.

I'm not sure when I think life begins. Logically with implantation, but emotionally when it begins to look like a human. Although we have photos of ds2 at 7 weeks as a blob, so that doesn't really work.

Neither do I Jimjams. I was just confused that Twinkie feels that life is life from the moment of conception, but then uses the coil, which works by preventing implantation of the blastocyst.

That was my thinking too hmb

A little off topic but relevant to some earlier posts -'Young mothers' are mothers too. Its easy to label them stupid, selfish, careless but for the most part it isn't true. How selfish can someone be for deciding to keep a child when they themselves are still young and probably have very little (financially) to give? If its a big sacrifice for a woman of 30 to make imagine the burden and sacrifice of a woman of 16 has to make.
I have seen too many abortions undertaken without enough thought to the consequences. Everyone (bar one) I know who has had an abortion has regretted it. Two of my close friends had abortions just before I became pregnant with my ds. They confided in me that they didn't realise that they had much of a choice as they didn't know that they could be happy and bring up a child as I have done. I haven't seen one of my friends for 3 years as she found it too difficult seeing me with my child when she knew that she had made the wrong decision. Whatever the counselling involves that they give before abortions it is NOT good enough. I blame most of it on the parents, who don't usually give their children the option of continuing with the pregnancies.
The one who didn't regret it was my sil. My mil took her to the abortion clinic 2 days after she attended the birth of my second son. My mil hasn't been the same since. My sil is now back with the man who left her which was cited as the main reason for aborting. She used her brief pregnancy as another way of getting attention and she didn't give a damn. I can't look her in the eye anymore, I just see a very cruel human being.

M2T found your comments so upsetting (although I guess you didn't intend that) had to abandon this thread for a day but couldn't stop thinking about it. And I haven't even had an abortion - merely supported someone very dear to me who did. Seems from what you said about 'killing babies' that you are anti-abortion full stop? I just support a woman's right to choose and don't think we should judge other people for making that choice. NB To clarify my earlier comment I do think unborn children are babies to their mothers IF they are wanted and clearly in late pregnancy, when they may survive outside the womb.

It is everyones right to choose. All circumstances are different and it is very, very unfair to judge.

Phew, thanks Magnum, that's all I really wanted to say!

While I believe everyone should take precautions against getting pregnant when they're not ready to have a baby. Secur's idea of more "drastic choice" of contraception is a bit harsh!! As a young woman I was determined not to have children and wanted to have a career. I didn't meet my husband until I was 39. Had I followed Secur's idea - then my DD wouldn't exist.
I agree abortion rates are too high, but to make "drastic choices" as a young woman is not the answer!

Well, I know people who very emphatically do not regret having a termination of their pregnancy. They are enormously glad, relieved and happy. And as for the children who were not to be, in many cases the fact that they terminated one pregnancy actually means that they have gone on to have other children who would not exist had they not had the termination - so if we are talking about how the children would feel, how about the subsequent children who are only here because their mothers took the path they did in life?

M2T, your friend who wants children, cries when she holds a baby but has two terminations - don't you think she might have quite a serious and deep seated problem connected with the idea of pregnancy and childbirth? That's what immediately struck me. It's clearly not a simple flip decision for her and I would think that counselling might help her.
I do not consider a blastocyst to be a baby either. I think the notion that it is to be quite absurd, frankly.

I agree aloha, I also know people who have had abotions and not regretted them. This isn't to say they took the decision lightly, they didn't, but that it was the right decision for them.
I also think that no matter how unpleasant abortions are, it would be much, much worse if the situation was what it was before 1967 when women were forced either to have backstreet abortions, have their babies adopted or have children they didn't want and often couldn't look after propely.

I must admit to being quite upset by Twinkie's first post about young mothers. Why must young mums always be judged as stupid and irresponsible? Even my own GP made it v clear when I got pg at 17 that he thought I was stupid to continue with the pg

I defend a woman's right to choose, but would never have an abortion myself, not for any reason. It's impossible to know the stories behind the stats, but they are WAY too high.

I knew a girl who used abortions as contraception - she was 14 when she had her first, and went on to have at least 2 more. Her mum was completely supportive, and worst of all, her younger sister started doing the same - she was also 14 when she had her first.

No method of contraception is ideal, but surely better than abortion?

Evansmum - I think there a lot more posts on here that are faaaar more harsh and to the point than mine!! Nut since you say I offended you so greatly I'm sorry. However..... YOUR post upset me! I can't take the attitude you have. Its wrong.

Your comment that a baby us only a baby IF its wanted is ludicrous!

So if you don't want a baby then it is just a lump of meat??? Very odd comment and I can't really see what your getting at.

Aloha - My friend is seeing a counsellor and has been since her 2nd abortion. She wants a baby very much, but at the time couldn't quite see hopw a baby would fit into her life of amphetamines and dope!! I can't have sympathy for her, SHE did this...... noone else.... and she now lives with the consequences of her actions.

Sorry to revive this thread, but I only caught up this morning and felt I had to defend myself against Evansmums comments directed at me.

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