Time magazine image of breastfeeding

[banana87]

Apparently this image is kicking up a hot debate in the US.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/time-magazine-cover-showing-mother-828267

I really wish people would educate themselves about the benefits of extended breastfeeding before proclaiming its child molestation. Utterly crap.

tanterose

I never said breastfeeding was sick.

I will however stand by what I said earlier- a 30 year old man who can remember his mother's pubic hair or a 25 year old woman who remembers Daddy's penis, is disturbing and IMHO sick. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Rest assured, I'm not the only one who holds this opinion.

exoticfruits

You just mentioned you throw on a dressing gown when your kids are around. That isn't really the same as wandering nude around growing young boys is it? If you sleep naked or walk around naked in front of your DH or when you are alone, I really don't think anyone would find that odd. But yes, wandering in the nude when you have a 10 year old or a teenager in the house, is highly inappropriate IMO.

It is also completely different for you to have helped an elderly mother who was unwell. Ive done the same for my mum and she has for me. But do you really think it would have been the same if you had to bathe and change your
Dad at this age? I'm sure one would do it in a dire stituation, but I don't think you can pretend it is the same as you bathing your mum. Or if you were to need assistance, would you be comfortable with your dad bathing you even now? Or would you rationally choose your mum to help you bathe etc.?

where have i said i wander around naked, if you read you will see i said my children may come in and see me in the shower or hop into bed with us? and at times when they were small yes i have wandered around naked, most of the time however i have a big bath towel wrapped around, goes from under my arms to down to my shins, or a dressing gown.

you arent comfortable with nudity, fine but i am and and so are many others, that does not make it 'sick' and you keep going on and on and penises and breasts, do you really think that when my children see me or dp naked they pay that much attention to the size of my breasts or his penis?! as they are used to seeing us naked they dont stare and they just arent bothered, they barely notice, if ds1 comes into the bathroom to talk to me he may well also be fiddling with his mobile phone, or he may clean his teeth and have a wee if he is getting ready for bed, its not like he is staring at me intently.

and when he saw me give birth he was 11 and yes he knew about sex and childbirth already by then, hell he knew about it when he was 5 and his third brother was born,t hey have all been given age appropriate information when they have asked about it and by 11 he had learnt about it at school. so if 11 isnt old enough to watch someone give birth when is? some girls not much older than 11 or 12 give birth, but they arent old enough to watch someone give birth? (not that pregnancy that age is a good thing but it happens)

and you said and i quote "Its not a great idea for children beyond the age of two to see their mothers bared breasts" so are you never going to take your child swimming then? pretty sure in most swimming pools you go to when you take your child into a cubicle to get changed (and they tend to be in the same cubicle as their parent up to age 8) that they will see your breasts when you get changed. and when you walk through the changing room to get to a cubicle you will in all likelyhood go through an open plan bit where people who dont mind not using cubicles get changed, so they will see other people naked, unless of course you blindfold them. plenty of 2 and 3 yr olds bfeed as has been seen by this and the other thread ont he same issue, should they be blind folded when they bfeed?

my elder children saw me bfeed their younger siblings, as they were over 2 should i have made sure they didnt see?!

to you this may be normal and if you want to make sure that your child never sees your breasts once he is over 2 then fine, but to call us 'sick' because we dont mind, is wrong and insulting, thats why. you can parent your child how you see fit, but its not up to you to decide what if its 'sick' when other people see things differently.

It is funny that people are desperately trying to put an age limit on seeing their parents in the nude (or anyone?) - My Dh was brought in a household of casual nudity and his parents (especially his mother) were quite likely to be found sunbathing without the aid of clothing when on holiday abroad even when he was in his teens. I have to admit to being slightly traumatised the first time I met them (a sunny day at their house) and my future mil let her top slip while we were in the garden revealing a bosom .... but I swiftly recovered my equilibrium and felt it was a test I had passed.

Nudity is not harmful - I really do not think it is the end of the world to see your parents in the bath or getting changed now and then. I should add the GP's respect the childrens privacy and they are not wandering around naked when we visit. Abuse and inappropriate behaviour is harmful that is a different issue.

Whatthehell - no, I think you are repressed because you call other people "sick" and "wrong" when they choose to be more open about their bodies. Your choice is your choice - as is mine - but I don't insult others for their choice.

see i dont think there is an age, i think it will vary from family to family and child to child, they are all different as has been mentioned on this thread, some want privacy from 7-8yrs others have children still in the bath with them at that age and another poster has adult dc's who still see each other naked, in underwear etc adn they arent phased by it. so its very individual, if people dont want to be naked infront of their children thats fine, but i DO object to being called 'sick' for letting my children see me naked.

WhatTheHell I can recall seeing my parents naked when I was a child. It really has never bothered me in the slightest, despite me being a total prude all my life. My child has seen me naked more than once, and apart from questioning, repeatedly, where mummy's willy is, does not seem remotely fazed by it.

I would NOT want to see my mother giving birth, but tbh, would rather not even be present when I give birth. My mum has asked if she could be present when I have DC2 and I have said no, as I would not be comfortable with her there.

However, I don't think there is anything sick or disturbing about nudity, childbirth, breastfeeding. I find your attitude bizarre, and wonder if you are from a country outside Europe?

Certainly, my DH is from an Eastern European country, where nudity is not a Big Deal, and he finds british attitudes to it bizarre - especially in changing rooms, with cubicles provided - he always asks what we have to hide :o

"a 30 year old man who can remember his mother's pubic hair or a 25 year old woman who remembers Daddy's penis, is disturbing and IMHO sick"

So children who come from cultures where nudity within the home is common (some Scandinavian countries, and in some tribal cultures) are going to grow up scarred by the experience?

Whereas in countries where people hide their nudity from their children, there is a healthier attitude to sex and people grow up with better mental health?

Have to say, that doesn't sit comfortably with what I know of the world.

I think in this day and age of air-brushed photographs, some children will grow up simply not knowing what a normal adult body looks like. How can that be good for anyone?

My dc's see us naked (they are 6, 8 and 12). My 8 year old ds is starting to show that he's uncomfortable when I'm undressed (by shouting yuck shut the door, when I'm in the bath!) so I'm going to be more modest around him now. It's a bit of a challenge though, as my 6 year old definitely prefers me to have my bath with the door open, so he can wander in and talk to me. They argue about it!

You are all free to invite your children to see you naked. You are at liberty to walk around nude in front of them even when they are thirty.

I am however entitled to my opinion that healthy body image can be promoted without children seeing parents of the opposite sex naked. I am also entitled to my opinion that it is unhealthy and disturbing for grown men to have recollections of a naked mother or for grown women to have memories of bathing in the nude with daddy.

My mother still helps me when I am unwell and can't bathe on my own, but I don't think it would be appropriate for my dad to do the same at all. Don't see why this is such a shocking view to hold.

shagmundfreud

You see, I'm not living in a tribal environment. It's not really the norm for people to wander naked where I live (don't know where you are).
Where I live, nudity is sexualised to some extent. Given that I'm not living on a nudist beach or a tribal farm, I will form my lifestyle accordingly.

Are you implying that parents should be naked in front of children so that they realise that everyone doesn't resemble a model? I think most children can make out the difference between mummy's body and Kate Moss's body even if mummy has her clothes on. You just need to walk on the streets for 10 mins to see that not everyone has a body like models do.
Nudity within a household is not required to point this obvious fact out to children. Moreover, if a young girl needs to know what a normal female body looks like, she doesn't need to see her father naked for that does she?

kveta

Are you capable of reading English? Where have I said childbirth, breastfeeding and nudity are sick? I said that children seeing parents of the opposite gender in the nude is sick and disturbing. Nowhere did I say breastfeeding and childbirth are sick. I did say that I don't think children really need to see mummy giving birth, but that doesn't translate to mean childbirth is sick.

You yourself have admitted to not wanting an audience while giving birth, and that is exactly what I said. In fact I'd be happy to have my mum or DH there, but not my children or any other family member. Surely that isn't all that strange an opinion to hold?

To answer your question, I'm very Europeon. Not all people from Europe frequent nudist beaches and bathe with grown children.

so what about scandanavian children, are they all going to grow up damaged having seen the 'sick and disturbing' image of their parents naked?!

and you say you only want your dh to be at the birth or your mum, no its not odd, for my first two births there was my dp and midwife, for birth 3 i had dp, a close friend and the midwife, no, 4 dp and midwife, no 5 dp, my eldest son and midwife, i wouldnt want loads of people and i wouldnt want my mother there actually but i was happy for my son to be there at his request.

and yes children know bodies are different regardless of seeing them naked, my children wil also know how big my breasts are even if i wear clothes, unless i bind them so they are flat. but t here is growing evidence to show teenage boys inparticular are growing up with scewed ideas of what the female naked body should look like, the proliferation of media images of air brushed women and the easily availability of internet porn is giving many a twisted view of normality, there has been much discussion of this in the media and on mnet.

you are free to your opinion that it is 'unhealthy and disturbing' and i and others are also equally free to challenge you on that.

5madthings

I'm not Scandanavian. I don't really care how they bring their children up. It can't be all that great though, since they hav the highest percentage of children being taken away by CPS. Nevertheless, it is not the norm in my family for fathers to be naked in front of daughters or for mothers and sons to shower together. We view it as inappropriate and unhealthy.

(You haven't answered the questions I asked you in my post btw.)

IMO, it is most certainly disturbing for grown children to see parents of the opposite gender in the nude. You think differently and that's your lookout. Can't imagine too many people outside mums net agreeing with you on that one. I don't think it's necessary for mothers to disrobe in front of their sons so that they can realise what a 'real' female body looks like. I can't comprehend the logic behind that at all.

WhatTheHell

no, no, I am incapable of reading English, and as such am not answering your question here, because I couldn't read it

DH saw his mum naked, as he helped bath her when she was dying. He was far more disturbed by his mother being so ill than he was by her nudity. He has no sisters who could have helped.

My grandfather was helped to bath when he was dying by all 3 of his daughters (not at the same time!). He had no sons, and my grandmother was too frail to help - so what were his daughters supposed to do?

I honestly cannot understand why it's ok to see one parent naked and not the other though. Either both or neither I could comprehend, but don't get why seeing the opposite gendered parent in the nude occasionally would be such a big deal. I don't expect that the parents will stand in front of their children naked and giving anatomy lectures, but a glimpse after a shower or bath - what's the problem? really, I would like to know :)

Gosh, I really hope nothing happens that involves you ever having to look after your Dad, Whatthehell. I can see he's not going to be actually looked after under those circumstances, purely because he's a man.
Are you one of those who thinks every man who takes his DD to the toilet is a closet pervert as well? Or that there are paedophiles on every corner? Because you are taking this sexualisation within the family on beholding naked flesh to really quite disturbing levels, IMO.

"IMO, it is most certainly disturbing for grown children to see parents of the opposite gender in the nude".

With respect, this is not INTRINSICALLY true. I lived in Kenya as a teenager and in rural areas you would frequently see women naked to the waist just going about their business, farming or clearing their yards.

But I agree that in the West, where we are obsessed with bodily perfection, child sex abuse and adult sexuality, nudity is problematic for many.

Just wondering though how else children can know what normal adult bodies look like if they never see a naked breast other than in a magazine?

Anyway, I think we could conclude by saying that What finds nudity within the family disturbing and upsetting and many of the rest of us are not bothered by it.

In other words, each to their own.

What - feel free to keep your clothes on! The rest of us will do whatever we and our children are comfortable with!

"Gosh, I really hope nothing happens that involves you ever having to look after your Dad"

It's really sad that one of the reasons why people probably don't want to care for elderly parents is that they are disgusted and appalled by the physical reality of their bodies and completely unable to give them the personal care that they need because of this.

kveta

The situations you describe are different from daily scenarios where fathers make a habit of showering with daughters or mothers walk around naked in front of sons. They are situations involving illness and the priorities then are completely different.
I already said in my previous post that in situations where there is no other option, of course modesty and propriety become secondary.

But just answer this: if you were to require assistance while bathing, changing etc. Would you ask your mum or dad? And why?

thumb witch

Firstly, my father is no longer with us. Secondly, had he required assistance while he was ill, he would have 100% received it. Although i can assure you that he would have much rather preferred a personal nurse or wife bathing him than his daughter or sister. I would have done the needful regardless.
I'm not referring to situations where there is a medical condition to be dealt with because obviously modesty and propriety become secondary then.

I'm referring to day to day situations. Would you really allow your 13 year old daughter to see your husband in the nude or to hop into the shower with him? Would you think it appropriate for your 12 year old son to see you fully unclothed on a regular basis? I hope not.

I'll turn that round - if your 12yo son was gay (and yes, they can have an idea of it even then) would YOU allow him to see his naked father? Since you're all about sexualising nudity.

thumbwitch

Why don't you answer my question first? Would your thirteen year old daughter shower with her daddy?

In any case, we have shower curtains and towelling robes in our house and once the kids come along we will make use of them. Our children will not need to see mummy and daddy naked, whether they are gay or straight.

FWIW, I don't think seeing his dad naked is going to help a young lad who is still struggling with his sexuality. It may not scar him, but I don't see it helping him either.

Because it's not me whose putting the show-down ideas out. I haven't said at all whether or not I would be happy with nudity in the home - I just think you are rude and insulting to other people who are ok with it and I don't like people who do that.

AS it happens, I am not comfortable myself with being nude around my child, because my parents weren't. My DH, OTOH, is fine with it because his parents were also fine with it. My DS will therefore not see me, but will see his Dad - that is what will happen in our house. And I don't care - because it's perfectly NATURAL to see naked bodies, not disgusting, sick or wrong.

To be absolutely clear about this - I am not comfortable myself walking around nude anywhere - not just where my DS is! It is personal to me, not because I have any weird fear that DS would be somehow "scarred". I'd be more worried about his sexual scarring if he thought all women should look like those in the VS magazines.

Actually, come to that, DS does see me in the bath.

thumbwitch

Congratulations on having missed the point entirely.

Where have I said nudity is wrong or sick? I just find it inappropriate for young girls and boys to see parents of the opp gender naked. That doesn't mean nudity is sick. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Would you feel similarly if your DH walked around naked in front of your growing daughter?

You are being deliberately obtuse.

And you are deliberately rude. I shall no longer bother with you.

I don't have a DD, I couldn't say until that point.

My 12 year old dd sees DH nude.

If she was appalled by it she would DEFINITELY say something. Because she's like that, my DD.

yes thats the children as others have said on the thread if children dont like something they WILL say so.

no one has talked about walking around naked except ofr you whatthehell no one has mentioned 13 yr olds showering with their parents except for you. my 12yr old doesnt shower with me, he did when younger, as his younger siblings occasionally do now. but at some point he stopped asking to get in with me and prefered to shower and bath on his own, ds2 is 9 and is now just prefering to bath on his own rather tahn with his 7 yr old brother, the 7 and 4 yr old are quite happy to be in the bath together or with me, tho there isnt much space if they get in with me! dd is 17mths and baths or showers with me or dp or with ds3 and ds4, occasionally ds2 will decide she can come in the bath with him. what she will do as she gets older will be up to her, but am sure she will let us know what she is happy with in the same way my other children do.

should say "yes thats the thing about children as others have said on the thread, if they dont like something they will say so."

"I am also entitled to my opinion that it is unhealthy and disturbing for grown men to have recollections of a naked mother or for grown women to have memories of bathing in the nude with daddy."

This is all completely in your imagination WhattheHell. As 5 madthings said, you are the only person talking about the parents of adolescents wandering around naked. Having said that, I don't think its in the least bit disturbing for a grown up to have a non-sexual image of a person of the opposite sex in their head. Thinking about it, as part of my A-level art course (This course was for 16-18 year olds - I understand from your posts that you were educated in the US, but that you are European - you might not be familiar with the UK education system) we drew nudes, sometimes of the opposite sex. It was all very un sexy.

Anyway, as you say, you are completely entitled to your point of view. I do hope that you manage to find a way to use public toilets and changing rooms while managing young children. I think with your current perceptions, you might find it quite difficult.