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Time magazine image of breastfeeding

410 replies

banana87 · 11/05/2012 10:51

Apparently this image is kicking up a hot debate in the US.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/time-magazine-cover-showing-mother-828267

I really wish people would educate themselves about the benefits of extended breastfeeding before proclaiming its child molestation. Utterly crap.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 15/05/2012 17:53

This is what I would think:

2 children under bed looking at a magazine in somebody else's house - they need to learn a little more about polite guest behaviour. (Whether they were reading Victoria's Secret or a Lawnmower Catalogue)

5 and 3 year old brothers desperate to look at women -

  1. They are at the age where children notice that boys and girls are different.
  2. They are also at the age when they find bottoms, poos and wees absolutely hilarious.
  3. The body of the opposite sex must seem really strange if you only get to see it in a catalogue. If this is the case, no wonder they are trying to work out what is going on.
sciencelover · 15/05/2012 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 18:19

mathanxiety

Please point out where I said it's OK for children to look at VS catalogues? I dont think its OK at all. I used the incident as an example, but your reading comprehension is repeatedly failing you.
The children chanced upon it while exploring the relative's house. It's a bit impractical to do a security survey of a house before you visit it with your children. Nor does anyone have control over the reading material of somebody else. It's hardly anybody's fault that they encountered those magazines.

I'm aware that we can tell children not to intrude on others in a changing room. They have been told so, and they have thereby stopped doing it.
The point was (which you have missed entirely)is that it was a natural sexual curiosity that made them want to see unclothed women- be it their cousins in the shower, or girls in changing rooms.

I realise the difference between Miranda Kerr and one's own mother, but by your stance children don't have any sexual awareness whatsoever. Therefore, by your logic, why would they find a model titillating? To them it's just another pair of boobs isn't it?

It's fine if your children saw you breastfeeding, I never said it was wrong.

I personally don't understand why on earth anyone would want their children in the room while giving birth, but that's just me. You can call in a party, if that's what you want. I'd never allow my son or daughter to see me with my legs spread pushing a small person out of my vagina. Can't see how it would possibly help or be beneficial. It would only succeed in making me immensely uncomfortable and possibly traumatising the child.

Whether they see you giving birth or not, they will be exposed to Page three, VS etc at some point in their childhood and teen years. Sorry to break it to you, but you can't really stop it.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 18:23

merrymouse

They were at their aunt's house playing with their cousins. Polite or impolite is not the question here. The point which you are evading is that even young children do have varying levels of sexual curiosity. I can't believe anyone would dispute that.

Nevertheless, invite your own kids in while you have sex for all I care. I just wouldn't personally allow my 12 year old to see me in the shower, nor would I let my 4 year old suck on my tit.

merrymouse · 15/05/2012 19:12

Young children are interested in bodies, not sex.

They are particularly interested in bodies of the opposite sex if they haven't seen many. This is not the same as being interested in the act of sex.

3 year old boys are also sometimes interested in worms, dinosaurs, what happens if you pull a cat's tail and dressing up as fairies. They are just young humans trying to find out about the world.

CheerfulYank · 15/05/2012 19:39

I'm glad I was ff if having not been so would have raised my IQ. I can't imagine being more clever. Wink

GurlwiththeFrothyCurl · 15/05/2012 19:43

Just as well you don't live in our house then. As we only have one bathroom, we all wander in when other family members are in the shower. Doesn't bother me in the least that my DSs have grown up seeing me naked around the house and I have seen them. No hang ups about bodies here.

sciencelover · 15/05/2012 20:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 15/05/2012 20:23

You seem to take it for granted that they will be sexually curious from such a young age, so surely it would behove you to do a quick scan to make sure they are not going to find anything titillating? Assuming you have a problem with children that age engaging in sexual behaviour of course. If you come across as more relaxed about the possibility of them finding inappropriate material when they visit than you are about the prospect of them seeing someone breastfeeding or giving birth or looking at strangers dressing or undressing (and your vehemence on this suggests that this is the case) then I think it is fair to suppose that that difference reflects your feelings on both scenarios.

There is an expectation in our culture that boys and men will behave with more aggression in the sexual arena than girls, and I wonder if you are somehow and maybe unconsciously condoning the boys' exploration for this reason. Would you expect a girl aged 3-5 to show the same interest in boys' or men's bodies from the sexual pov that you think your DSs have in the bodies of women?

'I realise the difference between Miranda Kerr and one's own mother, but by your stance children don't have any sexual awareness whatsoever. Therefore, by your logic, why would they find a model titillating? To them it's just another pair of boobs isn't it?'
That's the thing isn't it? Mine have not peeked into fitting room cubicles and they have not seen fit to gawk at a VS catalogue under a bed. They have seen boobs in action and there is no forbidden fruit aspect to them.

I agree with Merrymouse about the kind of interest 3-5 yo boys are showing, and it is not sexual. I think a boy of that age would be in awe of milk coming out of a boob and more interested to see how far it could go than anything else. The focus on the process of excretion (and farts, etc) at that age is quite strong after all.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 20:27

gurlwithfrothycurl

So just because I don't want my sons to see me naked, it means I have hang ups? Hmm
Would you think it acceptable for your 11 or 12 year old girl to see her father naked and grow up with memories of Daddy's penis?
It isn't a question about bodily hang ups because I don't have any. This is about propriety in a parent child relationship. I don't want to raise a Freudian nightmare.

I don't think growing boys should see mummy naked, or that growing girls should see daddy nude. I can't believe I am being singled out over a view which I presumed was quite normal. I am a bit shocked tbh.

Why not just bathe together? If nudity is not taboo, why not just shower together as a family? Bond 'skin to skin' and all that.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 20:35

mathanxiety

I getting a bit tired of your repeated projections. Oh and you have just proved your utter FAIL in reading comprehension. I have been talking about my nephews all this while and you assumed they were my sons. Seriously, try reading the post before replying to it.

My SIL young kids happen to be boys and I therefore used them as an example. Girls certainly do show similar curiosity and nowhere have I said it is OK for boys and not girls. Where the fuck did you get that from?

I presume you don't let your children step into a house before you have scanned it for inappropriate content? That seems to be what you are suggesting to me.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 20:48

mathanxiety

I find it quite hilarious that you lectured me on how badly behaved my nephews are because they don't respect womens' privacy, when all this while you have been saying that it is OK for young boys to just walk in on mummy in the shower or on the potty.

mathanxiety · 15/05/2012 20:51

There is such a mixing up of nakedness and sex there.

Bonding skin to skin with a newborn is not done in a sexual manner, and there is nothing sexual in a woman giving birth even if she is naked and her legs are apart.

I honestly don't think that the odd glimpse of a penis would blight a girl's childhood. Obviously any molestation would be a terrible and traumatic thing, but sometimes with the best will in the world people have wardrobe malfunctions. I would personally expect adults to cover up and for children to respect their privacy from about age 5-6 on, and to knock before entering a bathroom from 4ish on. Up to about 6 or 7 at the latest I do not think a child would be negatively affected by the sight of an undressed adult of either sex, but I think you can't suddenly start telling them to stop walking into the bathroom at that age without a bit of practice first. Children themselves exhibit a desire for their own personal privacy from about age 7 ime.

mathanxiety · 15/05/2012 21:03

I don't think I have been saying anything of the sort. My own DCs knock and if the bathroom occupant doesn't mind, they will come in and do their business and leave. If told to stay out they stay out, usually with a bit of pleading of an emergency and more knocking at intervals.

But I think now that you mention it that there is a difference between walking in on your parent in the bathroom and not respecting the privacy of strangers in a fitting room. A big difference. One is excusable and the other is really bad behaviour.

'My SIL young kids happen to be boys and I therefore used them as an example. Girls certainly do show similar curiosity and nowhere have I said it is OK for boys and not girls. Where the fuck did you get that from?'
I asked a question. I didn't make a statement Confused.
I think this society has a 'boys will be boys' attitude and that when they say 'children' are sexually curious or that they have a sexual appetite at age 3 to 5 what they mean is boys.

If I thought young children were satisfying some sort of sexual curiosity (or becoming sexualised) with material they found in someone's house then I would either not go there again, or make sure the children were in my sight when we were visiting. I have told my children on pain of severe punishment not to look through people's belongings when they are visiting other people's homes and I expect other parents to do the same.

sciencelover · 15/05/2012 21:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sciencelover · 15/05/2012 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 21:12

mathanxiety

Nobody is talking about an odd glimpse of a penis or vagina. We are talking about an upbringing where children see their parents naked on a regular basis.

In every family, people do occasionally walk in on each other in loo etc. but that isn't what is being discussed.

Again, please point out where I said skin to skin with a newborn is sexual? Stop projecting.

Nor have I said that childbirth is a sexual act. I have merely expressed the view that children don't really need to see their mothers giving birth. It is completely unnecessary. I wouldn't want my child to see me naked from the waist down with my legs spread and moaning in agony, even if the situation isn't sexual. It is still intimate, gory and potentially confusing.

In a society where nudity is viewed as sexual, good luck trying to convince your children otherwise. So what if being naked and giving birth are natural? So is sex. There is nothing more basic and natural than sex. Why not invite your children into the bedroom to show them how natural sex is. They won't grow up with 'hang ups' then.

exoticfruits · 15/05/2012 21:23

This thread has gone way off. Nakedness isn't the least important, it generally stops naturally when the DC wants privacy around 8yrs.
The thread is about a small DC who has no awareness of the fact he is being exploited because his mother wants to make a statement.

GurlwiththeFrothyCurl · 15/05/2012 22:07

It's simply perfectly normal in our house for us to wander around in underwear or go into the bathroom when someone is in the bath or shower. My boys are now adults and we are all at ease with one another. No hang ups, no weird perverted ideas, just all comfortable in our own skins.

All families deal with these issues in their own way. I just wanted to put an alternative view.

exoticfruits · 15/05/2012 22:09

You just leave it to your DC and whether they are comfortable or not. It isn't something to actively think about.

exoticfruits · 15/05/2012 22:11

Same with breastfeeding- they will stop naturally- it is a natural process and you don't need to dress assertively and go on magazine covers.

GurlwiththeFrothyCurl · 15/05/2012 22:18

Exactly, exoticfruits. We left it to them. They stopped bf at around a year because they wanted to. They just never developed the modesty thing at all! Mind you, we did have to teach that to DS1 as he is on the autistic spectrum and used to try wandering outside in the nude! Think he has got the hang of things now though, but is still unfazed by nudity indoors.

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 15/05/2012 22:20

exoticfruits

But it isn't being left to the DC is it? If parents make a habit of walking around naked or allowing children in while taking a shower, then the decision to not have any boundaries is their own, not the child's.

I can't imagine anything more horrific than a girl growing up with clear memories of her naked father or a son growing up with his mother's nude body etched memorably in his mind.

I cannot understand how people think its OK for a growing boy to see his mother naked in the shower or in bed.

5madthings · 15/05/2012 22:28

yes my children have and do see me naked or topless on a regular ish basis, we have 7 people in this house and one bathroom, it doesnt have a lock on the door, i shut the door and if the elder ones want to come in they knock, if i want privacy i tell them, if not they know i am naked and may choose to come in, if i am in the shower and one of them needs a wee etc they will come in and use the toilet, its the only one in the house!

if i am having a bath after i have got the 4 younger ones to bed and ds1 wants to have a chat about his day, something at school etc then yes he can come and talk to me if he wants, i dont force him, he will knock and say hello and chat, if i want peace and quiet and privacy i will tell him no.

yes my younger children who are 7, 4 and 17mths will sometimes get inot bed for a cuddle (well the youngest still co-sleeps) ds4 who is 4 will come in in the mornings for a cuddle if he is up early, he just snuggles up, sucks his thumb and often goes back to sleep.

ds3 will sometimes come in on a weekend morning, he may bring a book to read or just chat etc, its a nice relaxing way to start the day, until they all start climmbing jumping around etc!

and yes ds1 saw me give birth, i wasnt stark naked the whole time, i had yoga trousers and a vest top on for the early part actually, thankfully it only took 3 hrs (my other labours except the first one were also quick) i sat on the birth ball, walked round the room etc, ds1 sat in a chair most of the time, chatted to me inbetween contractions before things got going and talked to dp who as also there and the midwife who was impressed at his maturity and thought it was lovely he could be there.

BUT if he had wanted to leave at anytime the delivery floor has a waiting room for visitors he could have gone to, or he is old enough he could have gone for a walk to the canteen or even got a taxi the ten min journey home where my mum was looking after his 3 brothers. we also said if decided in labour i didnt want him there he would have to leave, or if there were any worries etc. we had talked it through in detail, he had seen vidoes of births, hosptial and home births etc and was pretty clued up about the whole thing.

when it really got going the last 1 and a half he sat quietly, it was actually a positive for me as inbetween contractions i would check he was ok and he was, i didnt scream and shout, i did moan and moo and had told him that i would do that, tbh he found the mooing a bit funny. and when i gave birth i wasnt flat on my back, legs akimbo i was kneeling up on the bed, so my legs werent that far apart at all, unless he had got down like the midwife did and leaned in to catch the baby he wouldnt have got more than a glimpse of anything,the baby as born, caught by the midwife and passed up between my legs to me to cuddle, like ds2 and ds3 had been (ds4 was a waterbirth so different) i turned around and had a sheet drapped over me then, i had kept my vest top on (which is actually unusual for me in labour but ihad a drip in and it would have been tricky to take the top off) ds1 then cut the cord and held his sister for the first time the look in his face of awe and amazement is one i will never forget, we have some lovely photos of that moment and actually its a memory he treasures. he felt honoured and proud to be there and to hold her (before dp did actually)

i dont konw what births you have seen what the hell just happened but they can actually be nice, they arent all traumatica nd full of screaming, nor do those at the birth have to see a vagina if they dont want to.

oh and re my children seeing me naked, yes they do that doesnt mean they see my vagina, i dont know about you but i have pubic hair (neatly trimmed but not too short Grin ) and unless i was to bend of legs spread etc or sit down with my legs spread what exactly do you think they are seeing?!

i agree with what others have said btw that 3 and 5 yr old should NOT have been in someone else bedroom, mine knew at 5 not to go looking in other peoples bedrooms when we visited and i would also have kept an eye on them to make sure they behaved, and they wouldnt at that age understand the sexual element of what htye were seeing, yes it would be a naked body but that doesnt equate to sex in a young childs mind.

you are making out like all nakedness is and has to be sexual well it doesnt, perhaps in your family but not in mine and in the many others i know of where actually yes children get in bed with their parents for a cudle and yes they may jump in the bath or shower with their parent or see them naked. there is nothing inherintly sexual in any of those things and i wouldnt expect a child to find any of it sexual either, if my 4 yr old sees my breasts they are something that his sister used to have milk from, he has no concept of them as sexual. basically waht mathanxiety said in her post atthe top of this page.

Badgerina · 15/05/2012 22:38

Blimey. This thread has really gone off.

Nakedness is NOT sexual. It is merely the absence of clothes. And yes actually, DS (7), sometimes bathes with me.

I can remember bathing with my mum when I was little, and my dad. Yes, I can remember their boobs/penises etc. I must have been... 6? 7? What is the big deal?

Am I fucked up about this. No. Do we respect privacy in our house? Yes. Have I been to nudist beaches in Europe? You betcha!

In my view, our private parts are only private, when we're doing private things with them!