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Dale Farm Eviction

720 replies

niceguy2 · 12/10/2011 17:43

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15163750

It seems sanity has prevailed. Let's hope there are no more delays and the site is cleared ASAP

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 17/10/2011 23:24

@2old2beamum... but if you'd gone ahead with your extension before getting planning permission and your neighbours had objected, you would have been told to pull it down. There's a right way to build - with procedures which you followed - and a wrong way with penalties attached, regardless of who you are. If the travellers had bought land that already had planning permission to build homes on it, this story would simply not be happening. Instead they took a risk and it hasn't paid off.

glasnost · 18/10/2011 07:42

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BehindLockNumberNine · 18/10/2011 08:00

Oh for fuck's sake what a load of hysteria by 2old and glasnost. No one has 'come' for the gypsies. To compare this to the nazi persecution of the jews is an insult to those who died at the hands of the nazis (my parent's family are amongst those, am Dutch, we were not spared)

No one is persecuting gypsies as a race. Merely those who knowingly flaut and break laws. Those who things they can do as they please and then cry 'human rights'. Those that have forgotten that with rights come responsibilities.

In my community there are gypsies. Some hard working, honest, lawful ones. And some thieving, dishonest, law-unto-themselves ones. I am happy for the lawful honest ones to stay. They intergrate into society to a certain extend, respect our laws, have morals.
The thieving, agressive, law breaking ones can go.

That does not make me anti gypsie, it makes me anti anti-social people.

And as for saying 'I am glad I am atheist' - wtf has that got to do with it? I am atheist too. That does not mean I support people who knowingly flaut laws and want rights without responsibilities. Be they gypsies or bankers.

needanewname · 18/10/2011 10:20

2pls2beamum - what on earth ate you going on about?????

You got planning permission for hour extension, yay good for you. I couldn't give 2 hoots what it was for and it means bugger all in the context of this discussion.

I have seen no comments on this thread that could be taken as gypsy haters at all. I have seen many comments about the law and the fact that it has been broken.

I have also seen many comments of sympathy for the legal travellers at the site.

The only hysterical comments I have seen have been likening the legal ruling to he murder of gypsies by the nazis. Unbelievable.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 18/10/2011 10:28

A good old Nazi reference is always the last resort from someone who has no good grounds for their arguement and knows it.

2old2beamum · 18/10/2011 13:02

maisie I am so glad the Nazis didn't impact on your life it ruined my parents lives and BTW I feel so sad for the gypsies nobody wants them in their backyard

needanewname · 18/10/2011 13:32

Omfg. Are you for real???????

On this thread no one has said they don't want them there. No one has said they should be exterminated. At no point on this thread has anyone agreed with anything the nazis said or did so change the fucking record!!!

I haven't read every single thread about the gypsies a Dale farm, but I am aware of anti gypsy feeling in the media and general population but honestly please stop harping on about it on this thread. If you would get off your high horse for just one minute you would be able to see that people are objecting to the illegal settlement of SOME gypsies at Dale farm.

I have been on many threads where there has been personal attacks against gypsies and the poster has always been jumped in by the majority.

An I may be wrong but pretty much everyones family will have been affected by the nazis in some way or other, obviously others more directly. This isn't a 'poor me, o low how they feel' thread.

Save your rantings for people who need them.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 18/10/2011 14:01

The Nazis "ruined" (a slight understatement there Hmm) millions and millions of lives. However, linking the Nazis to an illegal settlement of a group of travellers in the UK (who appear to have decided that travelling is not really for them any more) is such a tenuous link that it's utterly ridiculous.

glasnost · 18/10/2011 14:22

The Nazis didn't "ruin" millions and millions of lives. They eliminated from the face of the earth 11 million people - 500,000 of whom were Roma gypsies. The presecution started with shunting them from pillar to post. Ring any bells?

The fundamental point is: with all the horrendous problems blighting our lives right now caused by an economic crisis caused by a corrupt, rotten system why the hell decide THIS is the time to whip up anti gypsey hysteria in the rightwing press? (That'll be all of the media btw. The UK has majorly shifted to the right.) Your anger is misplaced and manipulated. Get pissed off with the overlords impoverishing you - not with members of an ethnic group that's been hounded out of existence periodically since year dot. In times of economic hardship, natch. How very BRAVE of you. Get your priorities right.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 18/10/2011 14:38

Just so I'm clear - is that all aimed at me Glasost, or jmerely a general rant?

needanewname · 18/10/2011 15:03

Aim your rant at people who needed to ranted at, not those sympathetic to people who's lives have been affected by lawbreakers.

And I will ask again, what is your solution, let them stay?

There iis another mumsnetter who has been having a terrible time with neighbours illegally building a bungalow at the bottom of their garden. She has had nothing but support from everyone on mn and hopefully they will have to take it down. No mention has been made of where the neighbours are from, only comments that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with doing something illegal. So why is it ok for the travellers?

glasnost · 18/10/2011 15:29

The first part was clearly aimed at you Maisie so don't be obtuse and it's heartening to know you believe reminding people that 11 million were eliminated is a "rant". (??)

aliceliddell · 18/10/2011 15:46

Oooh, insult me too!
Human rights don't come with responsibilities, as it goes. That's why a lot of people don't like them. Those arguing that we are all subjectmto the same law might want to consider the old Voltaire quote about rich and poor are both banned from sleeping under bridges. And dictators don't start with genocide, they start with innoccuous(sp?) bits of legislation that have unequal effects. Like, say, planning permission, for example.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 18/10/2011 15:53

Oh no, the latter half of your post was a rant - you rant along these lines on many other of your posts, so it wasn't unexpected.

The first part of my post was in reference to an earlier poster. The 'travellers' are not facing any form of persecution, they are merely subject to the same planning laws as the rest of us. Keep some perspective - it's very important that you do if you want your posts to be seen as anything other than misguided rants.

niceguy2 · 18/10/2011 16:02

alice, are you seriously suggesting that the government are planning to start genocide against travellers because they are being evicted from a site they do not have planning permission for?

I know you hate the Tories but seriously? I should also remind you that nine of the last 10 years of their appeal after appeal has been under Labour rule.

Genocide? Please get some perspective. Have you ever heard of the story of the little boy who cried wolf?

OP posts:
glasnost · 18/10/2011 16:27

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needanewname · 18/10/2011 17:09

If this were persecution of the gypsies they would be closing the whole site not trying to evict the illegal settlers. Nothing to do with any political party! Or the nazis for that matter

glasnost · 18/10/2011 17:26

Ooh be careful needanewname Maisie'll be accusing YOU of ranting next.

Come to think of it she prob won't seeing as you're both singing from the same hymn sheet. Must stick together 'n' all that.

aliceliddell · 18/10/2011 17:47

Miliband supporter? Moi? How very dare you imply such a thing! Certainly not. I didn't bring in the genocide thing, btw. Just pointed out that racism is usually a bit more subtle to start with. Law is not a phenomenon of nature, it's made by and for the powerful in a given group to maintain the status quo in their interests. You may or may not agree with them; that doesn't change the purpose of law.

onagar · 18/10/2011 17:53

Sevenfoldedbloodybodies "will the local council rehouse them?"

Have you not been following it?

The council offered to, but the travellers said that wasn't acceptable because they can't stay in one place for long. Their culture demands that they move on.

So those demanding the travellers stay there are trying to destroy their culture. I guess that means you are all part of a big evil plot - shiver.

glasnost if moving people around from place to place means you are going to kill them you had better start attacking the railways next as they do it all the time.

needanewname · 18/10/2011 18:04

Glasnost - get a grip for gods sake

glasnost · 18/10/2011 18:33

Get a grip, rants...clichè central round here.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15347365

Stand firm and resist, resist, resist.

whomovedmychocolate · 18/10/2011 18:34

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2old2beamum · 18/10/2011 18:41

onagar "the council will rehouse them" What about all the people on the waiting list for homes. The homes gypsies will be offered are the houses that other families have refused. This has happened near here with immigrants,the family I know live in conditions I wouldn't want a cat to live in.

mathanxiety · 18/10/2011 18:59

So where will they go?

Here's how racism works in the case of the Travellers -
First you make it almost impossible for them to get planning permission when they first apply, by allowing local residents to voice their opinions on proposed development by Travellers of property they own as part of the pp process, but then you grant them retrospective pp when the Travellers, anticipating negative responses from the local commuinity, go ahead and set up their homes anyway. The planning authorities make the law look like an ass and stirr up all sorts of negative feelings in the local population, who start suspecting that there are two sets of laws in operation, on top of the already simmering resentment about having to live near Travellers.

Then when the Travellers have successfully won appeals for 8 years, have put down roots, sent their children to the local schools and have started feeling at home, they are told the jig is up. They must move forthwith. However, the Travellers having experienced the tendency of the powers that be to speak out both sides of their mouth, justifiably feel they have a chance of staying, since they have done so for 8 years while appealing, so they stay and appeal. Eventually they are accused of making the law look like an ass (and apparently this is a cardinal civil sin) and of being criminals, while at the same time the judge leaves them a weekend to lodge a further appeal. So on the one hand he has told them they are criminals and on the other he has left them time to appeal, thus inflaming opinion against them while staying (only just) on the right side of the letter of the law.

Meanwhile, during all the years as the Travellers keep on arriving at Dale Farm, Basildon DC thought only of means to get rid of them, apparently paying no attention to the sensible conclusion that their increasing presence there suggested, namely that the Travellers clearly need somewhere to stay (let's please get past the irony that they are called Travellers yet they do not do much travelling). Very obviously, Basildon DC would prefer if the Travellers vanished off the face of the earth; they are prepared to spend £18m to evict this community but not a penny to ensure they can pitch legally in Tony 'not triumphal' Ball's bailiwick. So Basildon DC starts to look like a bit of an ass too. (Unless your priority is the removal of a maligned group of people, in which case you are probably very happy to see £18m spent this way and not in some practical way that would address their needs and signal even an iota of a positive attitude towards their existence).

Thus their need to have somewhere to pitch their trailers and have an address to use in order to register their children for school is mocked and used against them. They cannot just travel around indefinitely. They are obliged to send their children to school. Their need for an address makes them criminals but Basildon DC will not let them have one. Not in Basildon anyway. Basildon DC is perfectly happy to see them move anywhere else to be 'criminals' and 'make the law look like an ass' and cost another LA £18m to remove in due time.

Under the wise leadership of Tony Ball and his ilk, LAs are not interested in formulating a sensible, rational and cost effective policy of providing legal pitches for the Travellers and they can get away with the massive waste of taxpayer money involved in this blinkered approach because there are no votes in leadership on the subject of the Travellers, only in preaching to the smug choir.

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