Dale Farm Eviction

[niceguy2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15163750

It seems sanity has prevailed. Let's hope there are no more delays and the site is cleared ASAP

[mathanxiety]

Onagar, the law obliges councils to foster good relations between the rest of the community and legally recognised ethnic minorities and to take their culture into account when planning services insofar as their culture is not in contravention of the law. The law obliges councils to treat minorities and their culture with sensitivity. I am arguing for that.

Since it is legal to travel, to live in a trailer when not travelling, and to work at odd jobs or as seasonal unskilled labour, and since a big part of the culture of the minority at hand involves mobility then that is something the LAs are obliged to take into account. That is what I am arguing for.

I am arguing against the lunacy of spending £18m on eviction where a much smaller amount spent earlier in the game on legal sites in some other part of Basildon or elsewhere in Essex would probably have resulted in a far better outcome for everyone.

The Travellers object to the dichotomy between the obligation to respect their culture as it applies to travelling and the use of instruments of administration such as planning boards to effectively consign them to eternal travel with no hope of ever being allowed to pitch camp anywhere, or accept council housing. Neither option meets the needs of this legally recognised ethnic minority, whether cultural or physical. Yet the law says that they are entitled to their culture and exhorts LAs to accommodate their culture...

[mathanxiety]

Onagar, your suggestion that there is a comparison between the Travellers and the looters is ridiculous.

'However. I don't agree with the notion that everyone's culture must be automatically respected.'
If you don't like the idea that every ethnic group's culture has to be respected by everyone then that is fine. No individual is under any personal obligation to personally respect every culture. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, a preference, and to their own feelings when it comes to the culture or habits of other people. (There is, however, an obligation to obey the law as it relates to expressing those opinions.)

When it comes to LAs, as opposed to individuals, there is an obligation to keep the culture of officially recognised ethnic minorities in mind and to respect it when planning for the provision of services they are charged with providing; in the case of Travellers this means acknowledging that they need pitches and not council houses. It also means they must attempt to foster positive inter-community relations.

'If someone wants to set up a study to see if there is a way we can afford to accommodate the wishes of people who like to move around I'm okay with that. I doubt we can afford it and I doubt it is compatible with modern society, but it shouldn't be automatically dismissed.'

Many studies have been done, even at governmental level. Responsible LAs have studies the matter themselves. The result is a general estimate that in order to accommodate those Travellers who need sites, the UK needs to find the equivalent of two football pitches, widely scattered. It has been concluded by the studies that smaller sites, whether loosely 'residential' or transit, are the best option and the most likely to result in good relations between the settled and Gypsy/Traveller communities and least likely to result in a strain on community resources such as schools, social services and hospitals.

How to deal with the needs of Travellers and foster good community relations is not the issue. The issue is whether LAs are willing to look at the facts and show some leadership. A lot have taken the bull by the horns. Here is just one example of a sensible policy.

[onagar]

mathanxiety of course I know that. You want that for certain minorities only. You are always arguing for minorities to be treated differently.

[onagar]

why they are having to find illegal plots and set up there.

When you say 'having to' break the law I'm reminded of the looters who just 'had to' steal the trainers/TVs they couldn't afford. There is no 'having to'.

I have nothing against travellers in general - the ones who were not here that is. The ones that were here on the illegal site cost us £18m which might have paid for things like schools and doctors.

I have nothing special against their desire to travel either. It sounds attractive in some ways.

However. I don't agree with the notion that everyone's culture must be automatically respected. What the mafia does is a cultural thing and what the witch doctors are doing right now to small children in Africa is cultural too. Treating women as second class citizens is also 'cultural' throughout much of the world.

Your culture must fit within the laws of the land you are in. There is no question of culture overriding the law. You can't go to Saudi and drink beer with your BBQ because 'that's what you used to do back home'. It doesn't work like that.

If someone wants to set up a study to see if there is a way we can afford to accommodate the wishes of people who like to move around I'm okay with that. I doubt we can afford it and I doubt it is compatible with modern society, but it shouldn't be automatically dismissed.

None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the bastards who broke the law and cost us all that money at a time when we couldn't spare it.

[mathanxiety]

TalkinPeace, you realise that Travellers who stay on council pitches pay rent to the council, and council tax? Plus VAT, and until someone can prove otherwise, income tax.

And as Fifi said, no-one has forced you to live as you live, with a mortgage. Those Travellers who travel do so for many reasons, including following the available work.

'...thousands of young native people with no hope of a job, camped out in central London as its better than watching daytime TV'

Well, they'd better have some sort of permit for their camp. Otherwise they are breaking the law and the result will be baby girls lying dead in the street, bodies in the rivers, men having multiple wives and beating and raping them.

[mathanxiety]

'..so let me get this straight. If I say I want to travel around the council must provide me with a caravan site at any place I fancy visiting.'

The answer to that is 'No,' but you know that of course.
But have your fun anyway.

[Rocky12]

And btw - why werent they asked to take their rubbish and mess away with them when they left Dale Farm?

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

*respect for their culture

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

Exactlly Bubbles. And Ongar you have to first look at the reasons why they are having to find illegal plots and set up there. IMO this does stem from racism towards them. Its a lot more then they just decided to set up an illegal site.

The gov link gives more of an insight into why they no longer travel and the problems they encounter moving into social housing and setting up camps.

Like it or not talkin they are a minority and with that comes trying to respect their culture. They have lived this way for centuries and i for one what them to be able to live as they do with out being racially abused.

I total agree dale farm is a legal planning problem but you have to at least look into why they came to be there.

[bubbles4]

I will agree with you that the situation had nothing to do with racisim,or ethnic cleanising as the travellers themselves put it.Why I have pointed out your racism,is that you have not confined your views to the residents of Dale farm but tarred all Romany gypsies and travellers with the same brush.

[TalkinPeace2]

I must be very, very thick
why is my dislike of freeloaders racist or anti traveller?

The fragrant folks at Dale farm have set themselves up as "representatives"
a bit like the gentlemen at the "muslim council"
they either have to be disowned or supported by their "community"
If the rest of the Irish and Roma travellers in the UK are leading aspirational lives, lets hear about it.
I'm happy to admit I'm wrong if I see sound evidence.
But so far all I've heard is jumbling of Irish / Roma - leading to accusations of racism - and touchy feely "we must look after them" from people who have never been on the receiving end of the travellers who travel.

As fifi said, give them small,private, family sized plots (aka driveways) and the "problem" / excessive cost to the taxpayer / animosity
vanishes

[onagar]

I know what it was in response to, but I am making my own point. You are the one looking at a group of people breaking the law and seeing an ethnic minority who must be treated differently cos you can't expect them to be like us. That "but they are different" is the basis of racism.

The law is supposed to be blind and not pick and choose according to skin color or past history.

If people were just saying that generally we could make other arrangements for them I'd still disagree, but it would be a valid point of view.
The suggestion that being an ethnic minority makes it okay to break the law is another matter. Especially if we are told that just wanting them to obey the law makes us racist.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

It was in response to talkin so read it and stop twisting it

[onagar]

a large number of travellers and romas living in this country who do no wrong

What's that got to do with Dale Farm?

They were in breach of the law and got moved on. Unless you think that certain racial groups should have different laws (Which would be racist) that's the end of it.

[bubbles4]

TalkinPeace2 ,you really are prejudice against Romany gypsies and travellers.Many live on their own sites,pay their income tax,ni and council tax.I appreciate some may not but then there are settled folk who evade tax,settled folk who have never worked but claim benefits.I know Romany gypsies that are teachers,journalists and middle management.As you yourself stated,you have had a fair few posts deleted,perhaps you should ask yourself why,MNHQ dont delete posts without good reason.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

Theres groups out of every other ethnic minority who dont pay into the system but i dont hear you calling them and saying they are not welcom in the UK.

How the hell do you know who pays what into the system and theres plenty of uk residents who do all the above on your list of assumptions against travellers/roma.

Theres plenty of woman suffer DV at the hands of their OH who are not travellers. Theres also plenty of child abusers and rapists as well, just watch the news everyday or read the papers.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

my views are based on the fact that there is a large number of travellers and romas living in this country who do no wrong yet the likes of you give them a bad name with your racist comments.

Plenty of 'natives' cant buy their own home me included so i must be a freeloader am i.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

have you LOOKED at the cars these people drive?
Rangerover HE?
even if it was stolen and uninsured I could not afford the petrol

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

these people and the freeloader argument

how do you know they dont work, you just assume they dont. Your making sweeping generalisations of a whole ethnic minority.

Im hiding this thread, got nothing else to say on the matter. If anyone wants info its on links, especially the gov one

Like it or not talkin they are an ethnic minority and i find your posts offensive.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

So why would you want thousands of travellers across the country to take council houses they dont want when the homeless 'native's' could have them

I know a lot of people in desperate situations in homeless accomodation with kids or families jam packed into flats. Thats shit, and theres no way they can get a mortgage in their low paid jobs. I know they wouldnt want to spend another 3 years where they are waiting for housing knowing people have got them who dont even want them but they are desperate for. And i mean desperate.