Dale Farm Eviction

[niceguy2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15163750

It seems sanity has prevailed. Let's hope there are no more delays and the site is cleared ASAP

''Thus their need to have somewhere to pitch their trailers and have an address to use in order to register their children for school is mocked and used against them. They cannot just travel around indefinitely. They are obliged to send their children to school. ''

They need addresses to claim benefits

They do send their children to school - when it suits them

They do take girls out of school at 14 or younger to house keep
They do take boys out of school to work

To try and say the need to live at Dale Farm for legal reasons forced upon them by the horrid static community is quite funny really

Mathanxiety, whilst I think you make some valid points I'm afraid I still feel that they eviction should go ahead.

They knew they didn't have planning but went ahead, they haven't endeared themselves to the local community and seem hell bent on not looking at any kind of compromise.

I don;t wish any of them any ill will but if I have to stick to the laws, why don't they?

You still are though notatallniceguy. And an enemy of free speech. Bleat to MN towers again?

It's really quite ironic that a thread started with the sole purpose of rejoicing in a put upon minority being forced out of their homes is considered legit whereas highlighting the OP's implicit bigotry is considered worthy of CENSORSHIP. Go figure.

Yuck.

totallyagree with glasnost and others but feel I am losing the will to live with such inhuman right wing attitudes.

Still don't see where I have been inhumane or right wing, but then others haven't been able to see where they've been hysterical so there we go.

Nothing horrid about the static community, and nothing bad about making people send their children to school either -- I didn't mean to imply there was and I don't think I did actually. And yes, they do need an address in order to claim benefits. What problem do you have with the idea that they can claim benefits?

Once they are settled on a council site or on a developed site that they themselves own, they either pay rent to the council or pay council tax. On an illegal site, where they are forced to live when all other options are foreclosed, the LA loses that revenue, and most are forced to spend money on cleaning up the place when they leave. So a net loss to most LAs therefore. Legal pitches turn out better even from a financial pov.

Traveller children are usually taken out of school as the age of c 14 is considered the advent of adulthood and time to start being trained to be an adult member of the Traveller community. Boys usually do an apprenticeship of sorts in whatever trade the family pursues (family meaning the whole family here; women as well as men play a part in keeping the family afloat financially) while the girls also have domestic duties to learn on top of whatever part they will play in the family trade.

This is a very old fashioned way of doing things of course. In my own (non-Traveller) family, on my mother's side my grandfather was the last generation to leave school at 14 -- he moved in with his childless aunt and uncle and learned the ropes of farming (i.e. worked dawn to dusk on the farm 365 days a year) thus avoiding the emigrant ship to Australia where most of his brothers and sisters had gone when they had turned 14-15-16, or to Liverpool where he had an older brother. On my dad's side, my aunts were sent to boarding school for a few years after 'home-schooling' with the governess for the primary years, and then on to finishing school for a year or two. In total they probably spent no more than 6 years maximum in formal education.

I don't know what sort of compromise you might suggest to the Travellers. As for going ahead without pp -- that works for them in the vast majority of cases where they wish to establish residence. They had no reason to believe, going on past experience, that it would not work in Dale Farm.

mathanxiety - who gives a monkeys uncle about what your family used to do to be honest - a diverting tale but hardly relevant to the 14 year old girl who wanted to be a teacher taken out of school at 13 to care for her 7 younger sibling and then married off and pregnant by 17. Oh and that's my fathers cousin I'm talking about !

Totally agree with mathanxiety. In our city travellers live on a site pay rent council tax and water rates. Who can complain/ It can work with a bit of give and take.

2old. No one is complaining about the travellers in your city though are they? And it sounds like everything has been done above board. That is not what has happened at Dale farm.

Well, my aunts also wanted to do things with their lives but custom dictated otherwise for young ladies at that time, and custom won out. They went to finishing school where they were taught all the social graces they would need in order to be worthy wives and mothers, and were all married off to suitable men by 21 at the latest and mothers soon after, just like my granny, who had twins right off the blocks followed by 9 more babies, 11 in total. Not all that different from the situation Traveller girls and boys face, a few years of age and less salubrious surroundings being the main differences. My grandfather had to put off marriage until his late 30s when his uncle finally handed over the reins of the farm to him. He would have liked to marry much earlier, and so would his girlfriend, my gran. But custom dictated otherwise.

It's not a diverting tale, just a way of illustrating that the Traveller way of doing things is old fashioned. It hurts them in the long run of course, just as the old fashioned way hurt my aunts and affected my grandparents. However, the Travellers are making far faster progress in education than my ancestors did over the course of the years. When my mother was a child in rural Ireland, her oldest sister used to teach Traveller children the rudiments of religion before First Communion. All the children were unschooled and completely illiterate. Lessons were conducted orally. A lot of Travellers have accepted the necessity of some sort of education, even to the point where they have demanded culturally appropriate beginner readers in Irish schools, seeing nothing familiar in the usual Peter and Jane fare. Even limited school is better than none, which was the norm only as far back as the 1950s. Every little bit helps and every generation inches closer to a more modern way of life, just as my family did.

Travelers keep a close ear to the ground and adapt very quickly to changing circumstances, as subsistence participants in the economy must. They have moved on from horse trading and tinsmithing to scrap dealing and roofing/paving when the old trades became useless as a means of supporting a family. I would say based on their ability to see the way the wind blows that they will start to see more value in education in future. The limited amount Candy Sheridan and her friends have has enabled them to put their own case to the judge in the eviction matter themselves. Maybe there will be a few Travellers among the ranks of barristers down the line...

My fathers family were probably the travellers your Mother taught (Donegal by some weird coincident?)

I do worry for the children inside what has now become a compound at Dale Farm. From the recent reports they are now trapped within walls of concrete. I hope the remaining residents will leave peacefully. Even if they don't agree with the evictions, they should not put their kids at risk keeping them there :(

It's nice to see some intelligent debate btw. :)

Agree totally with needagoodname about the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding series. Reality TV was never very fixed in the real or normal world though. It's a shame really. There are some aspects of the travelling community which are very positive: the strong family links and the way they support the entire family. How the rights of succession work and also frankly, the strong work ethic (tax evasion issues notwithstanding).

Anyway, I hope it's ended peacefully. It needs to be resolved now and I hope that can be achieved without injury to all concerned.

No, other end of the country altogether - Carlow.

I also hope there will be no wrenching scenes for the children there to witness and that they will be able to find somewhere soon to put down roots, however temporary, and resume their education. Maybe the government and Basildon DC will finally accept an offer of mediation, should it be made again, in the interest of a peaceful resolution, and call off the crane and earthmoving equipment. It is clear that direct communication between the two sides has broken down. Some families have left with their trailers, apparently fearing damage and destruction inthe days to come. I don't really hold out much hope of Basildon DC welcoming mediation as they turned down a UN offer a while back. The residents have declared their intention of resisting, so sadly the outlook is not rosy.

I agree about the family focus and the work ethic -- many are more committed to capitalism/supporting their own than is generally supposed. They really should be the darlings of the Conservatives [hwink]

Although coming at it from a different dude to you I also hope for a peaceful end.

Maybe I have this wrong but thought the council did try to find a compromise and have been trying to resolve this for 10 years now.

I don't dispute that many of the famiy's are hard workers with strong morals etc etc. Once again it's a shame the minority spoil it for the majority

View not dude, bloody phone!

2oldtobeamum DON'T lose the will to live as MN is already a gloomy, faintly malodorous place with all these rightwing bigots feeling they've the run of the place. Keep on keeping on and expressing yourself. They'll wear themseves down with their lack of cogent arguments and humanity.

Apparently there are riot police at Dale Farm right now terrorising women with babies in their arms. With TASERS. One person's been tasered. Do you defend all this?

"Apparently there are riot police at Dale Farm right now terrorising women with babies in their arms. With TASERS. One person's been tasered. Do you defend all this"

There is no evidence of this, the women on lbc was lying.

Law-abiding people defend the upholding of the law. Those who break the law are taking a risk and they must know that the police have to use appropriate measures in order to maintain the law. It has been an emotional and very long-running matter but the occupants of Dale Farm will do their cause more good by leaving peacefully and with dignity than they will if they stoop to aggression or putting women and children in some kind of front line.

Glasnost this was a good discussion til you decided to come back, do us all a favour and go away again

Have also seen the coverage if the riot police, it's so sad that it's come to this.

I'll repeat, once again the minority ruin it for the majority (and before glasnost gets her knickers in a twist I mea the minority of the few bad travellers ruining it the majority of the good hardworking ones)

I have to say the tv coverage is awful. BBC news almost gleeful that they have a big story

needanewname is as democratic as OP I see. Sorry you can't decide who has a right to post on here. I would never use the kind of language you use. "Go away", swearing, shouty ranters calling into doubt other posters' sanity . You are in the wrong, rude and you knowledge of that makes you offensive.

Get angry and YOUR knickers in a twist about real ne'er do wells.

And I'm listening to BBC, not LBC.

Shame on this country and it's Government.