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Imperial bans Hijab

215 replies

peacedove · 24/11/2005 14:53

[quote]Imperial College London has issued a ban on its staff and students wearing hijabs or hoodies in its buildings as part of an effort to improve campus security.[/quote]

education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,1648360,00.html?gusrc=ticker-103704

very interesting, indeed.

OP posts:
hub2dee · 25/11/2005 10:22

?r dim, merryberry !

peacedove · 25/11/2005 13:05

Three issues were brought up in this thread.

  1. The ban was not on Hijab, but on clothing that would cover the face, and that this is due to concerns about increasing theft of laptops and the like at colleges and universities.

  2. The Hijab indicates that the woman is repressed, and she shouldn't show her face to the world.

  3. When a Muslim mother covers her daughter's head with a headscarf, it is obscene because the Muslims must be thinking of sex.

Of the first, I agree that if security is indeed an issue, then the ban is justified.

About the second, perhaps you should read testimonies from Muslim women, many of whom are single and living alone away from Muslim communities, yet they prefer to wear the Hijab, and even the veil, and they do not consider it an infringement of their rights.

About the third, to me even such thought indicate a sick mind. How can anyone even think that dressing up your children in a sober attire is because you think of them as sex objects. That is really sick.

I have seen little boys dressed up as cowboys and Indians, as soldiers and doctors and policemen, as hunters in khaki with matching hats, as little grooms accompanying their elder relatives in weddings, and that doesn't raise eyebrows. I have seen little girls dressed in all sorts of fancy dresses with matching hats, and that doesn't raise eyebrows.

Why then should girls wearing headscarves or Hijabs be a reason to throw scorn at their parents?

What would you dress your little child in: ds and dd? Would you have unisex clothes for them, all their lives? When would you start dressing them in clothes that make identification as a girl or boy easy?

OP posts:
moondog · 25/11/2005 13:07

This is the dress code I see.

Relaxed modern clothes for blokes

Hideous old curtains for women.

Nice.

Nightynight · 25/11/2005 13:14

moondog, noooo! that is so wrong! I often see very elegant Muslim women, wearing long coats or 3/4 coats and trousers. (in fact I choose to dress in a similar style myself, and I am not Muslim) I have also seen a Muslim girl wearing the same silk Laura Ashley scarf as I was - only it was over my shoulders, and she had it wrapped round her head. Hideous old curtains - no way!

Blimey I could go on and on about this!

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:16

Go on then-convince me!

One snazzy Laura Ashley scarf does not add up to equality in my books.

I am listening though......

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:17

I also think PD's examples of how he sees children dressed up is very intersting.
Note the examples he gives for boys and then those for girls.

Tell you a lot about the way his mind works....

Nightynight · 25/11/2005 13:23

moondog, you are out in the sticks are you not? come to Munich, you will see lots of stylish Turkish women!

I didnt find PD's last post at all odd, I thought it was v reasonable - but he does seem to wind you up doesnt he

spacedonkey · 25/11/2005 13:24

Moondog, I saw the Observer article too. It's very interesting how a symbol of cultural identity has become so controversial, with completely opposite claims being made for it.

It did say in that article, re: the sex object thing (sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, I haven't read the whole thread), that girls are not normally expected to wear the hijab until they reach puberty. It also claimed that the veil is particularly advisable for "very attractive" women, for their own protection?

How can the link with sex be denied?

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:26

Nighty...sticks?
Not really.
This year alone I've been in Dubai,Ankara,Istanbul,Geneva,Van (where I live in Turkey) as well as my permanent base in north Wales.

Yes sd...I noted the 'very attractivet thing.

fuzzywuzzy · 25/11/2005 13:29

I find this very interesting, a woman wishing to to cover her hair is considered a 'hardcore, fundamental, political raving Muslims....' 'With a persecution complex...'

I'll tell you why the Muslims are upset by this ban, because errr we are the only ones who wear a Hijab, a Hijaab is Islmaic clothing therefore we feel (and rightly so) presecuted for our religion.
I should imagine a lot of Catholics (and no other religion) would be deeply offended if they were banned from wearing a cross.
Similarly if the skull caps worn exclusively by Jews were banned I should imagine those of the Jewish faith would be (rightly) incensed.

I wear the Hijaab (I am talking about the headscarf here), I do not go around insisting everyone else wears one, be they Muslim or not. However as I have been born and brought up in the UK, as my parents have grown up in the UK, as my family and I have worked and paid UK taxes all our lives, I take for granted that I am allowed to wear what I choose..... Hell I once found myself walking past a completely stark naked man outside Top Shop in Oxford Circus, no idea what happened to him, but I can promise you I didn't stop him and tell him to put some clothes on.

As for going to another University, this is IOmperial University, so how long do we suppose the other universities join in ie Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, City so all Muslims go to bog standard unis then, what happenes if every University Bans the Hijaab, Muslim women no longer go to University???

I work at a uni, and things regularly get stolen, generally the thieves are white blokes wearing jeans and tee shirt or something equally inocuous, I have yet to hear of a woman in full hijaab trying to run away with a students laptop or the maintenance man's hammer drill.

Nightynight · 25/11/2005 13:31

sorry moondog you did say once that you were in a remote corner of Turkey. can't believe you didnt see some nice clothes being worn in Istanbul though!

hub2dee · 25/11/2005 13:40

moondog, did my sweet Welsh not impress you ? I think I've been to Van. I went as far as Hakari when I travelled extensively in Turkey when I was (much) younger.

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:44

Hub,I'm still trying to work it all out!! Who is helping you??

Hakkari...wow!! That is truly the very end of Turkey.I've been there-it isn't too far from Van (which you must have visited-big lake and castle on a rock. Lovely place,charming people.)

When were you there?????

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:46

Fuzzy...who said the stuff that you quoted in your first sentence??

And you can't wear a crucifix in Saudi you know.

moondog · 25/11/2005 13:47

Just waiting for PD to remind me that all the iffy issues are 'cultural,not religious'.

That is how he usually deals with difficult questions.

hub2dee · 25/11/2005 13:54

Beth sy?n bod, moondog ??? Pob lwc LOL.

Cymru am byth, cariad !

Hwyl am nawr. X

peacedove · 25/11/2005 14:01

spacedonkey: "how can the link with sex be denied?"

when a non-Muslim mother dresses her very young daughter in a replica of the bridal dress, is she thinking of someone having sex with her daughter?

She isn't, as far as I am concerned. She is just visualising how lovely her daughter will look when she grows up and marries someone.

Most Muslim women, and men, cover their heads when they hear the adhaan (the call to prayer). What the women put on can be considered as Hijab. After that, those who observe their religion, get ready to pray.

Now where does sex come in this?

Does this answer your question: "how can the link with sex be denied?"

The answer is simple. The Hijab on the young daughter reminds the mother of her and her daughter's relationship with Allah, and how her daughter, when she grows up, will submit to the One and Only God.

It is that which should count with us.

I have glanced over the Observer article, and I am not quite sure what it says we should do, or if really wearing the niqaab is a threat to society.

OP posts:
spacedonkey · 25/11/2005 14:05

peacedove, that does not explain why Muslim women cover themselves. I don't find the hijab a threat at all, in fact I feel that it's wrong to deny anyone the right to wear what they want to wear, so please don't think I'm having a go, I am genuinely interested. Please explain the reason behind Muslim women covering themselves?

slug · 25/11/2005 14:15

Maybe not as far as you are concerned peacedove, but to Western eyes there IS an issue here. My reading of the Quran and the Haddith, though I will admit, far from scholarly (I only did my bachelor's degree in Islamic studies) points to the justification for modest dress as a way of protecting women from the lustful gaze of med.

Now, modesty considerations aside, and ignoring the discussion about the victim blaming aspects of making women responsible for men's behaviour, can you not see that if you justify the Hijjab on the grounds of modesty and female safery, you are therefore implying that young girls wearing the hijjab are being protected from men's lusts also? The pedophillic implications are fairly obvious here.

And I also wonder about your explanation of little girls in the hijjab as 'dressing up'. Surely if it was a game (and I don't dispute it is sometimes) they would not be wearing the hijjab every time they go out the door, as happens round where I work. Granted Western women let their children dress up in wedding dresses, but I would be seriously disturbed if they wore it every time they went out of the house and had to run and put it on if a male visitor came to their home.

hub2dee · 25/11/2005 14:22

(apologies for the rudeness of the parallel convo, BTW)

moondog - wow - can't even remember when I was there ? Erm 1989 maybe ? I was around 19 ! I just pulled out my photo album of that trip. I went through Artvin, Kars, Doguebayazit, Gervas and saw the Island of Akdamar (which I think is where you are) before going on to Hakkari. Then Diyabakir, Mardin, Sanliurfa, Harran, Adiyaman, Goreme etc. towards Istanbul and home. I was incredibly slim (after being a podgy kid) and am now incredibly fat so some of the photos are totally hillarious (like one of me with an imposing man who was the local pistachio roaster in Diyarbakir). It was a magic, fabulous trip. It was a tiny bit scary at times, even as a bloke (but I was young and gorgeous LOL... gosh what has happened to me, LOL ?)

spacedonkey · 25/11/2005 14:25

Exactly slug. Why cover up women from puberty onwards if it has nothing to do with sex?

peacedove · 25/11/2005 14:42

spacedonkey, my post was for clearing a little misunderstanding about young Muslim girls having Hijab (not by you, but by a certain individual who has made it a purpose of her creation to bash Islam, and to associate sex with everything Muslims do, even Muslim children).

slug, perhaps I did not write clearly. I wrote:

"Most Muslim women, and men, cover their heads when they hear the adhaan (the call to prayer). What the women put on can be considered as Hijab. After that, those who observe their religion, get ready to pray. The Hijab on the young daughter reminds the mother of her and her daughter's relationship with Allah, and how her daughter, when she grows up, will submit to the One and Only God."

Yes, we encourage our young to submit to God as early as possible. Our children, both male and female, learn to pray with us, much before it is a religious obligation. Many even start fasting with us, at a much younger age than is obligatory.

They are our children. We do not teach them to blow themselves up. We teach them the responsibilities they will carry as human beings, we teach them to seek strength from Allah, and we teach them to obey Him in all matters.
_

as for the adult women, and men:

Muslims cover because they are commanded to. Both men and women are asked to dress in modesty, to hide their private parts, and more. There are differences in what parts are to be covered.

They are asked to use language that does not encourage sexual arousal, and to hide those parts that can arouse.

Here then, your statement that sexual arousal cannot be denied, has some validity. Some, because even ugly Muslims cover.

There is a wonderful poem, written by an English revert sister, and if I can find it, I will post it for you to see why Muslimahs prefer to cover.
_

I do not agree with the association of "little girls with Hijaab" as a protection from lustful gazes. That to me is an indication of a sick mind, nothing else.

OP posts:
moondog · 25/11/2005 14:50

'even ugly Muslims cover'

Priceless!!

Hub.....still want to know about the Welsh.
Yes,I know all the places you mention very well indeed.
Small world eh???

spacedonkey · 25/11/2005 14:54

I can see the point of those who claim the wearing of the veil is a feminist act though. I'm not a muslim, but I sometimes think I'd love to wear the veil simply as a way of escaping being an object. Men have the luxury of invisibility, but women never do. That said, completely covered women attract more attention, not less.

Harry Potter invisibility cloak, anyone?

slug · 25/11/2005 14:54

Oh I agree, the idea of young girls being covered up to protect them from lustful gazes is sick. But that is the implication if you follow the logic to its conclusion.

p.s. I hope you are not referring to me as "a certain individual who has made it a purpose of her creation to bash Islam, and to associate sex with everything Muslims do, even Muslim children2. I have far better things to do with my time.

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