How the name of heaven can anyone support the Tories?

[turdassmuthafukka]

I just don't get it. Unless you are a heartless multimillionaire - then it makes total sense of course.

I have to turn off Radio 4 when I hear Hague?Gove et al dribbling out their blatant lies/spin/venom especially early in the morning. How on earth can ANYONE not see them for what they are?

You know, I don't mind that you read the Daily Mail, I do from time to time. but if you actually quote it to prove a point, then seriously, you do really need to expand your reading material or to get to the library. But...Oh fuck, aren't the tories shutting them too?

usualsuspect

500 000 jobs have been created- this is the fastest job creation seen in the UK in the last 40 000 years

I like this definition of 'social democracy' from TE Utley.

?Roughly speaking, social democracy may be defined as an arrangement under which we all largely cease to be responsible for our own behaviour and in return become responsible for everyone else?s. The temptations which this way of doing things offers to synthetic anger, fraudulent penitence, all other forms of hypocrisy and the sheer evasion of duty are infinitely too strong for fallen man.?

The synthetic anger is a common theme amongst MN posters who believe themselves to be liberals.

moondog is calling electra a hysterical woman?
and using Daily mail quotes -

Resorting to personal, sexists insults and daily mail quotes is pretty much admitting total defeat.

Somethingwitty82 - do you understand maths? What is 500,000 - 1,000,000?

(perhaps a change of name is in order?)

RobF

Your comment below shoes a distinct lack of understanding about workers in the public sector:

'...private sector jobs when they are expected to work to a high standard, dress smartly and act respectfully towards colleagues and clients'

I have worked in the private, public and voluntary sectors in my working life. I have always been smart and cared about the 'customer' as has my colleagues. I have always worked to a high standard. As has my colleagues. It is a myth that there is this big cultural gulf between the different sectors. The only difference I found was that I could simply work the 35 hours a week I was paid for in the private sector. In the public sector I was paid for 35 hours a week and in order to get everything done and done well worked an average more like 50 hours a week. But as it was about more than someone's profit margin and I cared about the community I willingly did so. As did many of my colleagues.

It would cost you nothing to recognise that there are many hard working people in the public sector who do not deserve such ill-informed insults.

I think public sector jobs are the only really useful jobs in society. Thats why they are in the public sector - because they are too important to leave to the vagarities of the market. Every other job is, at its root, about making money for its owner.

Limbo, many other jobs are the ones that create wealth and thus taxes that not only pay public sector wages but put TC, HB,CB on the table and keep the NHS and schools ticking over.

Most business people we know pay more tax a month than your average public sector worker takes home. By a long chalk.

HHLimbo

What are you on about? 500 000 - 1000 000

Perhaps a change of name is in order? HHBimbo?

What about those who build the roads, maintain water treatment systems, deliver fuel, prospect for oil, devlop vaccines

Id rather have those than public sector non jobs

The Guardians Wednesday jobs page is a must for a jolly good Viz Style laugh.

Though I do wonder just how many Support Workers for Men who Like to Have Sex with Men Hackney Council can afford to employ.

There has been an interesting change in politics over the last few years, where it is now acceptable to say, 'I don't have that that therefore why should they?'. This used to be the accused position of Labour and socialists complaining about the haves of the middle classes, but now it's the self deemed 'middle classes' who complain about others having, for example pensions, while they do not or where they have inadequate provision.

But rather contemplate about why they do not and what brought them to this situation, they simply attack those who do and who are trying to defend what they have paid into and worked for. It's not so much the aspirational middle class anymore but the envious and bitter middle class. Fuelled of course by the 'excellent' [sic] Daily Mail.

And it is not just restricted to pensions. It includes those with more than two children, single mothers, people who have the termerity to be sick.

The agenda meeted out by the said rag of course is to displace any type of empathy towards fellow human beings, in favour of the 'individual, the saviour of conservatism. But of course, public sector have been unionised and members have had the 'collective' benefit of that, but still, it's the mad unions which are to be chastised, not the raping of society whereby each man should stand alone, at the mercy of good, bad and incompetent employers.

The new Tory envy is bizarre to behold, particulary when it transforms to adoration in the case of the bankers, who gambled away the country's wealth to increase their own.

Just for the record, I supported the teachers strike 100%.

Indigojohn - create wealth or create recession? It is people who create wealth. Private companies use them to profit their owners. Public services employees use their talents to profit the public.

Lucabrassi - hear hear. They are pushing an unpleasant agenda which consists of "admire those above you, envy/attack those around you, kick those below you". Very divisive, community destroying stuff. (wealth destroying also).

something'witty' - I notice you havent answered the question.

HHBimbo thats because I don't understand the nature of the question

I dont have that, why should you= the private sector pays for it. It creates wealth, so when he people paying the bills are getting poorer by the day why shouldnt those they subsidise?

I don't think you can blame private sector people for being angry with the public sector. Unions are almost useless in a globalised world, but the public sector had largely been protected from globalisation, due to the fact that most of them vote Labour. Now the Tories are back in, the situation is being put right, and to no-ones surprise, the public sector people don't want to lose their privileged position and are protesting.

Re pensions, if this is the way it is to be, then pass a law and draw a line in the sand. But make reasonable provisions to accommodate the existing arrangements. To cut people off at the knees when they are in their fifties and have no way of compensating for the shortfall is beyond unfair.

How are public sector workers exposed to globalisation theFalcon?? We can hardly move our schools and hospitals and bin collecters to China.

Or do you think we can, and only Labour stopped us from doing it, lol.

Or do you think that these public sector functions should be sold to an American, for example, so that they can charge us more for them to make their profit, and take the profits out of the country to America?

Luca, it's not about saying "Why should they have something I don't". Certainly not for me. But what I think is a fair & legitimate question is "Why should they have something which they haven't paid enough for?"

Look at it this way. If something in a shop is £200 and I only have £100, am I entitled to it? No. Same with pensions. The workers are only contributing a fraction of what they will receive back and they are expecting someone else to pick up the tab. And that someone else is the taxpayer, whom is already reeling from an endless list of demands. We have an aging population, shrinking tax revenues, zero economic growth, having our butts handed to us by the asian economies and oh yes...we have to find billions not only for pensions but all the other costs of old age care too like care homes, NHS etc.

So this is about restoring a semblance reality into our nations finances and an important part of that is being realistic about what we can afford to pay our public sector workers. It's not about envy, it's not about ideology. It's about mathematics.

Good point Luca, I wonder about the legality of changing the terms and conditions at such short notice.

'Nice'guy - Actually, the pensions are funded by the workers and many schemes are in profit. This is just a raid. Check your facts and stop spreading stupid lies.

Nope. The 'worker' makes a small contribution and the employer contributes 3x as much, noting now the employer is bust, borrowing money each and every year

I wonder about the legality of improving terms and conditions? They signed a contract, why should it be increased year on year? And new benefits added on top, paid for by moi?

Where is my say? I am held to ransom.

Privateise the binmen, offshore the IT and Admin support.

I think public sector wages and pensions should be based on what the workers could realistic expect in the private sector.

Believe it or not, there are millions of people who would love public sector jobs even with the new conditions in place. The current public sector people really don't realise how good they have it. Any that lose their jobs will have a real shock when they start work in the private sector.

"Most business people we know pay more tax a month than your average public sector worker takes home. By a long chalk."

So here we have the example that most private sector workers take home so much pay, that just the tax on their earning is equivalent to the average public sector worker's wages.

Bear in mind that public sector workers on average have a higher level of qualifications than the average worker (eg all teachers, doctors, lecturers etc have degrees and more).

So this shows how public sector pay is lower than expected from the private sector. They also do not get profit sharing schemes or bonuses.

I would expect any civilised society would appreciate its doctors, nurses, and its public sector workers, and allow them to retire with dignity.

Niceguy, that still works only if it's recent. Those pensions have been invested for years. Draw a line, a reasonable line, and after that, well you neo conservatives can do as you will

I live in Scotland and I'm not a nationalist but the writing is on the wall. Scotland has nowhere else to go now it seems.

Completely agree with Niceguy2's comments! Well said. Simple maths. The Labour govt got us into this mess with their spend spend spend - now the Tories are left to be the unpopular ones and get us OUT of this mess.

Simple maths? Would the tories have bailed out the banks? I think not. and cocktail girl, would have been left, glass in hand at the ATM wondering where the fuck your money had gone.

And the bankers would still be throwing tenners at you