From the Wall Street Journal: WHY CHINESE MOTHERS ARE SUPERIOR

[Medea]

I kept rereading it for irony, but there was none.

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

Not sure I get the distinction between loving the children unconditionally and expecting certain behaviour from them. Do you mean that any ticking off or anger is a withdrawal of parental love? Others would argue that it is not loving to let them do as they please because it is not in their best interests.

No I meant being too negative about finding the things you do for them boring, like ironing their clothes or taking them to parties. Thought maybe that could make them feel a bit unloved.

Hmm. Women were always expected to iron the clothes, especially if they are stay-at-home mums.If you cant get your OH to do it, or some of it, best thing is to minimise what you do iron and put on you favourite music and sing along.

But the constant going to parties and having sleep-overs, and ferrying them to this activity and that club - that's new. People used to do much less of that. Nowadays every child in primary has to have a birthday party and invite the whole class - what a load of nonsense. (Ok, I exaggerate, slightly). And I can remember when my daughter was to move up to the oldest swimming class it was suddenly moved to another town, starting at 9.00 am on a Saturday. My husband, who did his fair share of taxiing but had a regular golf match on a Saturday, accused me of not doing enough for the children because I decided that swimming lessons ended at that point. I pointed out that she did three other activities, my son did two and we both worked full-time, so he was being unreasonable to expect me to give up my Saturday morning for swimming lessons that she didn't need. (She was already by far the best swimmer in the family, although not going to take it up seriously as a sport.)I wasn't being un-loving, just prioritising my time. He seemed to take the view that any activity they could do was good and we should give up our entire lives to drive them around. I think that a certain amount of that is good, but they need down-time too, just to play with their friends in the street or read a book or draw a picture. I also need down-time and they had a much less stressed and grumpy mother when I got it.

Don't feel bad about finding boring things boring. Just try to minimise them. The parties thing lessens as they get older, and the number of activities can too, as they focus on the ones they really want.

I had to laugh when I read the article. It is so true, although this article is extreme.

I have been to many places in Asia and parents expect so much from their children. In Vietnam, I've seen kids biking back to school at 7 PM at night for extra lessons, even on Sundays. Many attend summer classes and have tuition at the teacher's house with the rest of their classmates.

Another thing I notice with many of the asian languages is the "hierarchy". Even young children are taught to refer to themselves as little sister, child, etc and show respect for the older person. It is rude to question an older person and children are taught to respect their parents and to take care of them when they are older.

Interesting enough, speaking of obeying, I read an article about the cause of a South Korea plane crash which was caused because the flight crew didn't stand up and question the pilot.... Thinking for yourself is not a general idea in Asia and many children are just taught to do as they're told or else.

I'll try and find the article. It was very interesting. The whole asian mindset is so different.

Cortina - yes, I know about brain plasticity and developing new connections. However, that doesn't mean you can turn any individual into a high performer in any subject or skill you choose. No matter how hard someone tries, they may not have the skill or ability to play tennis at a high standard or get A in Physics A-level.

Practice does indeed have an awful lot to do with proficiency, but that's not the same as saying anyone can be good at anything.

"Another thing I notice with many of the asian languages is the "hierarchy". Even young children are taught to refer to themselves as little sister, child, etc and show respect for the older person."

DS2 is indeed refered to as little brother and refers to DS1 as big brother. Going by their interaction I'm not so convinced about the "respect" bit. My little brother took years to get over this business and call me by my name, but it certainly did not stop him terrorising us when he was little. My younger SIL calls me elder sister, which I find really sweet and makes you feel part of the family.

Asian mindset, indeed. Wish I know what it is.

What an interesting article. Thanks Medea. I am in contact with lots of young Chinese people and often talk to them about their upbringing.

Some young people from any country really suffer from the pressure they are under - and far too many spend all their free time on computers.

It's lucky that kids are resilient, and in our family, they are bringing themselves up in spite of their parents, not because of them.

Edam, thing is if you believe intelligence is static & effort perhaps fruitless as you 'haven't got it in you' etc you'll likely avoid challenges & perhaps achieve far less than you are capable of.

Most are capable of far more than they know, see the PP who mentioned her daughters experiences with maths etc as well as other examples I gave. If you take the attitude you 'can't' do it as you've reached your limit there is no point making an effort. Not good if you think this about O'level maths as I did :) Driving is a tricky skill yet most assume they'll learn eventually so guess what happens?

Just because you'll never be an academic or world class tennis player etc doesn't mean you can't get better. If you believe intelligence can be developed & adopt a growth mindset you see effort as the path to mastery and achieve far more than you thought possible. Negative feedback suddenly you'll take on
board and learn from rather than seeing it as criticism
too.

Another thing about the immigrant experience is that your children are expected to be a bit 'different' and that makes it easier for them to not fit in and resist the urge to dumb themselves down.

@Abr1de : my 13 year-old passed piano grade 8 and cello grade 7 recently. He decided to sack his current piano teacher because he felt that his teacher wasn't ambitious enough for him (let's him get away with being ok) and hasn't been guiding him to do explore what he likes. Found him a new teacher who's strict and fanatical about techniques...my son is over the moon. I asked him whether he's sure he wants this as the new teacher is Taiwanese (=strict) and he replied,'It's about time I get serious about this and knuckle down.'

My point is that we have to look at individuals and their particular circumstances before deciding that anything labelled Chinese equates to bully/dictator. Just because Amy Chua is nuts doesn't mean all Chinese mums are too. I am Chinese living in the UK. I'm constantly trying to find the middle ground; sometimes I sway to the east; sometimes to the west; most times, I am a wreck!

well if this is traditional Chinese parenting, I think I can learn from this to expect strength rather than assume fragilty.

In the piano donkey piece example, her way of going about it is so alien to me that I will never be adopting it. Specifically calling my dc "garbage" and telling them they will have to go without food until they learn a piano piece is never going to happen. Even if I were in danger of doing that, there is no way on earth dh would let me get away with it.

With that piano piece I would have done initially what she did, tried to help dd practice one hand and then the other and then bit by bit put it together but if she had become frustrated and seemed not able to do it, I would have said it just didn't matter, was of no importance and I would have told the teacher she was struggling with it and the piece was too difficult for her.

I am another who genuinely finds it difficult to understand this emphasis on learning piano/violin and the importance of doing so well at it.

I don't personally know many Chinese families but I have met a lot of Russian immigrants who expect straight As and 1 hour's music practice a day wouldn't wash with them either, it would be easily 3 hours.

I can't answer for the violin but I believe the piano is a usefully integrative tool for the brain. You have to co-ordinate both hands, hands with eyes, hands doing something differently, processing multiple bits of information at once and feeding the right bits to the correct hand, engaging both sides of the brain etc.

I'm sure there are other things that achieve this (e.g. computer games) but not with the chance of repetition to a high standard.
I think learning the piano is very rewarding and quite a good idea BUT I would never force an unwilling child into it, nor make them practise without food or loo breaks. Or even make them practise 3h a day if they weren't able for it.

For sure. I'm definitely not knocking music, violin or the piano. I am just surprised that it is deemed so important that a dc would be forced to master every piece and practice for 3 hours a day.

I mean if you want to become a top-notch professional musician, it wouldn't be enough. If you are just acquiring the skill as something generally considered admirable in your circle, or perhaps longer term once the instrument is mastered to a high level as a source of pleasure or as a tool for developing the brain, why 3 hours when the dc doesn't want to do 3 hours?

The three hours thing may be another aspect of this that has much to do with the US education system, specifically the college application process. One of the girls played in Carnegie Hall at age 12 or so - this would look really, really good on an application to a top notch US university, where students are invited to list all their extracurricular activities and use extra pages if necessary.

The more activities a student is able to/can afford to pack in, at a very high level, the better. One really good student from DD1's year in HS played three sports on the first teams, debated, did maths team and academic team, rebuilt homes in New Orleans with a church group, played an instrument extremely well, graduated first or second in the class of about 800, and was accepted into one of the armed services academies (extremely competitive, and everything he did outside of school was absolutely necessary to have a chance of admission).

it's all so competative now so alot of parents living through their children hoping they may achieve something they always wanted to but didn't. my dd DOES have piano lessons HOWEVER she didn't start until 7 (alot at her music school she goes to once a week can barely see over the keyboard).she only does about 15/20 minutes a night, if we are lucky but we are laid back about it. she has grown up with music around her/instruments as dh is a prof musician plus her granny is a piano teacher/plays cello in orchestra. dd has nagged for years to play but dh was adamant not until she turned 7. alot of other kids play 2 instruments and in my total innocence i only recently found out by chance that this is because of scholarships. dd wants to learn the guitar but we think enough is enough (when she is older it is up to her). her piano teacher said that more than half of her pupils don't want to be there, barely do any home work. dd is lucky, even though she doesn't do much (homework) it seems it is in her blood as it comes naturally to her so it doesn't seem to matter as she picks it all up in her stride. i wouldn't push her, i hate all that crap

I just realized that her husband is the author of "Interpretation Of Murder".

Too late for this now, it yesterdays stuff but HMC I realised afterwards I'd misinterpreted what you said - Apologies. BTW that was my point - dyslexics have to work extra hard.

Can anyone be an A grade physicist? Dunno - maybe. But everyone can be better by working harder and this has implications given how much parents (especially of younger children) are scared of asking them to do work if it is against their inclination.

Thruaglassdarkly. I had a very similar experience with my dd and maths which is why I developed the views I have expressed. I was genuinely gobsmacked at how the child I had assumed was poor at maths 'just like I was at school' became top of the class and at ease with numbers through lots of the right sort of practice. On the primary education thread the general assumption among parents seems to be that children have a natural level of ability and to ask them to do extra work is to 'hot house' them and cruel. Just not convinced about that now.

Intrestin about the book CoteDAzur.

An interview with Amy Chua

Mean Chinese Mom Swears She Is Nice Sometimes

Very funny piece by Maureen O'Connor there. And Margaret Cho.

The Chinese aspect of it really is just a smoke screen. What she described is just upper mc American parenting no pretence of velvet gloves or expression of parental neurosis.

'with no pretence..'

@teta - ooh, I do sympathise, my DH isn't Chinese either but lots of my friends whose DHs are Chinese get very involved. Yes, of course it's a bit of a generalisation when I wrote my bit to counteract Chua's rather demented sounding extrapolations. There is definitely a trend in some more well-off Chinese families in parts of Asia to have Filipino maids to be nanny, chef, cleaner, all rolled into one. And as Filipino employees (even engineers, doctors and nurses) are often courteous to a fault, they often don't question their employer or suggest that they ought to be allowed discipline the child (of course I don't mean smacking, more being given timeouts and sending to the corner or their room). Some employers don't even want their children to be reprimanded which all puts the nanny/maid in a very difficult situation - end result, very disruptive, ASBO-type child. I guess the parents tell them off when they misbehave at weekends, if the children are lucky.

For those of you still fumming over the article, if you haven't seen this follow up yet, Chua's response to a reader Christine Lu is quite interesting:
www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal

Apparently Chua says she was taken out of context - she tried to do the stereotype and her teenage daughter eventually turned the tables on her.

I do think the donkey piano piece is a bit ludicrous though (she wanted her daughter to wee at the piano?) and often I find the best thing with kids struggling is to leave them to their own devices and they'll come up with the result, rather than a parent breathing down their neck. Unless Chua herself was an accomplished concert pianist who knew how to play the piece well - but I didn't get that from the article.

@notatigermum - so true for many of us!
Just tell youself at least you have more than one tradition to draw the best bits from. (although easier said than done sometimes!)

listen to all the posts on quora (that follow up link I posted) with people writing in saying they were miserable and actually psychiatrically ill after that exact kind of upbringing. And the number who attempted or committed suicide at university afterwards. And to think that most Chinese mothers - even the tiger kind - would think, "deep down, I don't care if they are bums and don't achieve anything. I just want them alive and well.I'd give my life for them." Of course, you don't actually raise them to become a bum - but that's a universal aim, I think.