From the Wall Street Journal: WHY CHINESE MOTHERS ARE SUPERIOR

[Medea]

I kept rereading it for irony, but there was none.

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

After reading her interview I am even more inclined to see her experience as more of an immigrant experience than a specifically Chinese one.

Immigrant families are isolated in many ways from the general culture and it's therefore easier for them to impose values that are different from those of their peers' families, identify aspects of the culture they wish to adopt and also aspects they wish to avoid. A determined parent can do things with her children in those relatively isolated circumstances that she mightn't be able to get away with if she was surrounded by family or friends in an environment that was 'home' and not 'foreign' maybe simply because of having no-one to challenge her, especially in the early years, and never having the feeling that her nearest and dearest are looking over her shoulder.

I suspect Chua's daughters will raise very western children though, and not just because they will be third generation Americans or because they have an American father, but as a form of rebellion.

However, I don't think any child has innate inner drive or motivation, Chinese, Irish, Ghanaian or whatever they may be. Drive and motivation come from parents (though it doesn't have to be instilled by terrorising your DCs as Chua did).

In the US, most of the other immigrant parents I knew would look down their noses in private anyway at American parents who allowed their children to drift through school (beautifully equipped, purpose-built, well-staffed school, the kind of system many immigrant parents could only dream of for their children in their home countries) and shake their heads at politicians unable to see (or say) that the real problem when it comes to low performance/school failure of children is parents who don't care.

Absolutely awful! These children never have any fun. Now I no why, we have the most inventors in the world, because we allow our children the freedom to explore and express themselves. I can't think of a worse way to bring up children than the 'Chinese' way.

It is very similar to the Japanese culture, and they have one of the highest suicide rates in the world, brought on by the tremendous pressure these poor kid are under!

Going to school should be fun MGB, with learning as well.

In any case we have a totally different culture here to China, so we can't really compare! Suffice to say I wouldn't want it!

Many Chinese mothers have commented on the Times website and, while they do not parent like that, they recognise that a small minority do and I am sure that it is not absolute nonsense, just absolute nonsense to most Chinese mothers.

Math. I agree with your last paragraph but not so much the first bit.

But it's not that we look down our noses. We just come from a country where education is not a "right". Your parents too poor? You don't go. Simples.

Luckily the last 30 years of growth in China have changed a lot but in rural areas, for many it's still far from western standards.

about ten years ago my parents invested a lot of money into finishing a half built school for their home village. This was a school which the local council had simply run out of money to build. In exchange our extended family was promised free education throughout.

The side effect was that many other families came to literally beg my dad to put in a word for their child too. They couldn't of course as where do you draw the line?

In that context it's not we look down our noses, its more we simply cannot conceive why when you live in a place where education is free and world class, why so many parents simply don't care?

Go live in India, China etc. See the life chances the kids get there. Then it's much easier to understand why we are so passionate about education.

Am passionate about it myself and I'm Irish and attended a nice newly built secondary school in Dublin. And the friends I know who were also immigrants, mainly eastern European, Russian, were in the same boat as me as far as having attended good schools in countries with universal literacy and education highly stressed. But when I took a tour of the high school in the US that my oldest DD graduated from I couldn't believe my eyes. It was better equipped than the average small college (beautiful gyms, pools, track and field facilities, tennis courts, football/ baseball fields, fabulous science labs, language labs, broadcast studio, theatres, art rooms and state of the art equipment, music rooms and instruments, auto repair labs, kitchens, a creche/daycare for students who were parents to leave their babies/ young children in, and most of the teachers had masters degrees in their subjects, with a fair few PhDs too). I couldn't believe either that there were children and parents who didn't appreciate it and avail of what was offered, and it was free.

The life chances of children in the US who have dropped out of high school are just as dim in many ways as those of poor children in India or elsewhere, and yet they have, right there on their doorstep and freely available, the chance to improve their lives and they don't take it. Hence the shaking of immigrant heads of all varieties.

I read the Independent article on this and one quote struck me.
"Could it be that much of the laissez faire parenting of the modern west uses the idea of enlightened liberalism to give an intellectual justification for what is actually a form of laziness."

In the OECD annual educational survey assessment China came top. The inescapable fact is - the harder you work the better you do. I don't have Chua's ambitions for my dc's and her methods were barbaric but I don't bury my head in the sand and tell myself that the degree of success my dc's have academically is pre-programmed genetically. Nor do I believe that I do them any service by cutting off their life options by choosing to let them do just what their inclination dictates. One post said "My kids are not A* but I accept them as they are". No, academically they are what you have chosen to make them. Of course genetics and family environment play a part but hard work is the crucial ingredient to improviong performance academically from whatever starting point - and thats that.

To require a child to work hard at something is not automatically damaging. What is damaging is to make light of what they have achieved and withdraw acceptance and love. Too many parents in the UK seem terrified of actually requiring their children to do academic work that goes against their inclination. I think that our children pay a price for this and I agree with the quote.

I fear for dyslexic Chinese children - dyslexia is often goes undiagnosed in the UK so I imagine the rate of detection is worse in China. I suppose the poor things just lead a intolerably miserable life.

hmc - SN in China is hard to get through. there was a kid in my class with a slightly malformed palate - and a bit of a speech impediment. very slight. he also - i thought - had difficulty hearing. other people said he was just naughty - i disagreed - and that a doctor had checkd his hearing (i wonered at the quality of the test)

according to his parents there was no problem, and his problems were because he was little an Chinese, and his problms with Chinese were because he was at an English school!

Dyslexia - i suspected a child of being Dyslexia but it was not confirmed - everyone wa very dfensive on the point. I may have been wrong though.

I was told that because Chinese writing works on a different system, no-one is dyslexic. Not even if they are learning English..?

HMC Are you suggesting that dyslexic children shouldn't work hard? I have taught lots of children diagnosed with dyslexia that have had to work extra hard but have been able to achieve the good A Levels they deserve.
Having high expectations is not the same as assuming the reason for your child's lack of progress is laziness.

One post said "My kids are not A* but I accept them as they are". No, academically they are what you have chosen to make them. Of course genetics and family environment play a part but hard work is the crucial ingredient to improviong performance academically from whatever starting point - and thats that.

Perhaps the poster who accepts them as they are has also worked hard at encouraging and guiding them so that they improved academically, but they still didn't get A*s and, of course, she accepts them as they are. What's wrong with that?

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that you should allow your children to be lazy. They are saying that you should not bully and abuse them in the way described in the article in order to 'make' them get As. You can't choose to make them anything; you can only encourage and guide, which will lead to improvement, but not necesarily As. Obviously home-life has a tremendous impact, but so do genes and different people are different. Academic achievement is not more important than, say, mental health.

Some people are obsessed with their bodies; some are obsessed with their children's education. Neither is healthy.

camicaze, if your approach was true, anyone could be a professional footballer, as long as they practised hard enough. After all, it's just about your mind controlling your body, and keeping fit, isn't it?

Every individual is different and has different aptitudes and abilities. And brain architecture, if it comes to that, via both nature and nurture. Human beings are not just plasticine that can be pummeled into any shape you wish.

I thought she was totally over the top at times, but related to aspects of what she said and agreed with them.
Let me explain.

My 6 year old daughter was struggling with her number bonds in maths 6 months ago. I enrolled her in a KUMON class. She began at the end of year 1 sequencing numbers up to 100 over a few days (this was repeated a few times over the coming weeks). All summer she added numbers up to 120 to 1,2 and 3. She did 160 sums a day, which equated to about 15-20 minutes work each day. She hated it at first. It was boring and repetitive - 21+2. 34+2, 67+3...Sheer pergatory for all of us. But I told myself and her it was 20 minutes in 24 hours.We had tears and tantrums and it was, at times, dreadful. After two months she was finding school maths easy. After 4 months she was moved into the top maths set and now, despite being the youngest in the year, the teacher is expecting her to achieve a level 3 when she is 6 still.
Most nights she gets on with her Kumon with no fuss and completes 80 sums (we halved the holiday workload in termtime) in around 6 minutes. The odd night, she kicks off but the Kumon method requires daily tasks without fail. Tonight she kicked off, wouldn't do it because it was "BORING!" Everything in me said, "Ahhh, bless...let her off tonight." But I knew that it would take her about 6 minutes to finish the sheet she'd already started and that she could do it with ease. I wanted her to understand that a) she could do it easily - it was just a matter of confidence and b) you know what - we all have to do boring things sometime in life. Most of her life involves exciting things so to spend a few minutes on a boring thing is no bad thing as it prepares her for the endless hours of boredom she may face as an adult.
To make this point, I showed her my ironing pile and told her that I didn't want to iron her things tonight because it was boring, so I wasn't going to. I hoped that she wouldn't mind looking like she slept in her clothes at school? I also told her that it was boring driving her around to parties and stuff, so I couldn't be bothered to do that either. I had her attention at that point. I offered to sit down with her to get her Kumon finished. She was happy for that and said it was just that she hadn't wanted to do it by herself. I sat with her as she took 4 minutes to add numbers like 8+9, 7+5 in over 60 sums. I cheered at the end of every set and told her she had the page all correct. She flew through the lot at amazing speed. When she finished I praised her so much and she threw her arms around me, saying "Thank you Mummy! I never thought i could do that!" (even though night after night she manages this!). She was over the moon in fact.
I could have said at any point, "Forget it and watch some telly before your bath!" but what would this have taught her about focus, about trying something you find difficult and succeeding? About stickability? She has so much fun all the time, I don't think it hurts her to have a little bit of boring number bond drilling.
I explained to her simply the lessons I had been trying to teach her tonight and she actually said thank you.
So in a very small way I do get what tiger mum means. I could never be so harsh with my children, but there's more than one way to raise a child and I think it's presumptous to suppose that because we're western and therefore supposedly enlightened that we have all the answers and everyone else is wrong.

(Sorry about that waffle - a few wines tonight - makes me a bit slack about grammar and general punctuation...)

Completely agree Thruaglassdarkly.

Camicaze I agree. So many seem to think IQ is a life sentence and fixed forever determining achievement. Why do we love to label children and unwittingly put a ceiling on their ability.

My son is now a good reader, he has never been seen as able as he really is due to confirmation bias I believe. He can read Charlie & the Chocolate factory and understand it but brings home books with 'the horse neighed' written alone on one page. Meanwhile others, who were further ahead on the reading conveyor belt to begin with, steam on with the meaty chapter books he could cope with, self belief & determination to do even better growing daily.

It's possible to get smarter, a B student could become an A student. Someone who got a 2:1 could get a first and so on.

Edam actually cognitive science is developing all the time, increasingly they believe the mind is more like a muscle and can be expanded.

You mention David Beckham, whatever natural gift he had he practiced unbelievably hard. Matthew Syed has written about the 'myth' of genius in Bounce. Did you know the parents of the Williams sisters decided they would be tennis champions BEFORE they were born?Look at the piano prodigy Emily Bear, she had one of the best teachers in the world right from a very tender age.

Syed found his area was over represented with world class table tennis champions & then saw there were reasons why. He also looked at a group of incredibly gifted violin players and some merely good ones, the difference? Only hours of practice.

The more I study the more I am convinced by his and other arguments. The belief that my intelligence had a limit prevented me from fulfilling my dreams, I don't want the same to happen to my children. The truth is what one person can achieve many can achieve but this doesn't happen for many reasons.

Thruaglassdarkly - I've seen what you describe many times. Teachers subconsciously can begin to see your DC as bright and this has huge advantages. Why don't more believe children can get smarter?

Whatever differences there are in IQ a growth mindset will take you far. What's the point of bothering if you've reached your limit in maths? Mindset by Carol Dweck makes some good points.

Can't sleep :)

My dyslexic cousin works for the United Nations.

No camcaze I am not suggesting that dyslexic children should not work hard - how do you come up with that spurious conclusion from what I said? .

For someone who has taught dyslexic children you seem to know very little about it (like many teachers ime, sadly) since anyone with even a basic comprehension of dyslexia is aware that dyslexics have to work several times harder than NT children to achieve similar results (this has been recorded in brain wave activity etc).

My dd is dyslexic, has been assessed by an Educational Pyschologist and found to have an IQ on the 99th percentile, however she is not currently capable of the an A, B or C grade in a spelling test. Luckily for her she doesn't live in China...

gladis - I am delighted that your cousin works for the UN but not altogether sure of your point exactly?

I could have been marginally less rude there about your teaching credentials I suppose, but you did piss me off

Ahem, sorry (there said it!)

It is partly about how you define academically. I don't see how the rigid approach described in the article would produce the kind of child who does well at a Western university.

Barring rebellion, it would produce a highly conscientious and hardworking child who reads a lot of books and does as she is told- but those are not exactly the only requirements of Western science. Creativity and the willingness to challenge preconceived ideas are at least as important, and I don't see any evidence that the mother in the article helped to foster those.

Ime these are precisely the kind of students who get all A*s and then flounder at university: diligent, hardworking and without initiative.

I want my children to work hard. But I don't want them to work hard unquestioningly. I suppose because I don't want them to grow up into the kind of student I wouldn't want to see in my own seminar. If that were to be the case, I'd rather they didn't make it to uni at all.

Ironing is boring and quite unnecessary! But I do agree children need this sort of thing pointing out sometimes, although I am wary of moaning too much about how difficult my life is and how much hard work they give me...I am supposed to love them unconditionally after all! Other examples might work better with my dc...

I read another article recently about chinese girls who get to grade 8 in piano and violin.
And then, when they leave school, simply never touch their instruments again. Ever. Because they hate them so much.

I think we set ourselves up for a lot of twisting into knots when we feel we must love our children unconditionally, and I don't think this is a realistic expectation. Children can be extremely annoying, and teenagers can be a real challenge to the whole 'unconditional' thing. You would go to the end of the earth for your child, and back - maybe that's instinctive - but that shouldn't necessarily stop you from expecting a child to study diligently for next Tuesday's test, bring home the books needed for homework every day and do it all, never cause any disruption in class, ask a teacher or parent when something comes up that he or she doesn't understand, etc.

Totally agree, mathanxiety. Unconditional? I am a frayed knot!