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Human rights
Original poster

Shamima Begum loses appeal

417 replies

TheRedBalloon · 26/02/2021 10:47

Just seen that the Supreme Court have ruled that she cannot return to the UK, her Appeal has been unsuccessful.

OP posts:
WannabemoreWeaver · 26/02/2021 22:53

@PresentingPercy

The men got back under their own steam. They are not in a refugee camp if they got back. I’m hoping we have big tabs on them!

The grooming issue wasn’t what the court was looking at. It was looking at whether she can come back to appeal the decision about her citizenship. They were persuaded she was a security threat. Plenty of people were groomed under the age of 18 and committed crimes. The crimes outweigh the grooming in the law.

And there are men who went to fight for ISIS who have been stripped of their citizenship. But we dont hear so much about them. Teresa May did this at least 10 times as home secretary.
bushhbb · 26/02/2021 23:57

When I say exhausted you really will be. No1 was born during a level and I had to sit down the entire day alternating between study and feeding. It is possible but it is an absolute grovel. Good luck either way

MarieFromStTropez · 27/02/2021 05:46

What happened to SB's three babies? Has anyone established why and how they died?

They died of malnutrition apparently. But Begum didn’t look malnourished at all. How can your child starve to death yet you are fine? Very suspicious.

HoppingPavlova · 27/02/2021 06:00

What happened to SB's three babies? Has anyone established why and how they died?

Or whether she actually had three. I’m pretty sure the last one didn’t exist, it was incredibly fishy and I’m guessing was to bolster the cause of returning to the UK. She probably did have the first two though who probably died due to living in third world conditions which results in high infant mortality.

QuidditchQueen · 27/02/2021 07:51

She can still appeal -she just can’t cone back here to fo it. She can gife evidence by video link in tnis day and age.
But if course she knows that if she was here, even if she lost her appeal she coukdn’t be deported anywhere.

Andante57 · 27/02/2021 08:22

They died of malnutrition apparently. But Begum didn’t look malnourished at all. How can your child starve to death yet you are fine? Very suspicious

That’s a good point.
I don’t suppose the truth about the children will ever be known - what they died of or whether they existed in the first place.
What’s happened to the Dutch husband?

PresentingPercy · 27/02/2021 08:33

No video link in her refugee camp. That’s why there was a court case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. If it was that easy there wouldn’t have been a need for the case. No one had said she can easily go ahead and appeal the citizenship decision at the moment. The door isn’t closed but actually doing it is very difficult.

cherrybunx0 · 27/02/2021 08:49

@AnneElliott a very good point that I wish more people who were commenting on here would look at. who is going to get her??

PresentingPercy · 27/02/2021 08:53

Actually most refugees are not collected by anyone. They get to France themselves. The right to return isn’t the same as collecting them. So that’s a red herring really.

fallfallfall · 27/02/2021 08:57

Where are her parents in all this?
Everyone has family yet I’ve not read that they are supportive or helpful? Why is that?

PresentingPercy · 27/02/2021 09:01

New twist: Joe Biden wants all refugees in Syria to be repatriated. Putting pressure on nations to do that. Including the uk. That might change things. USA wants nations to deal with their own potential terrorists.

MrsBotibolsCruise · 27/02/2021 09:08

What I’ve said should happen all along.....

Andante57 · 27/02/2021 09:26

@PresentingPercy

New twist: Joe Biden wants all refugees in Syria to be repatriated. Putting pressure on nations to do that. Including the uk. That might change things. USA wants nations to deal with their own potential terrorists.
What happens if the nations refuse?
Viviennemary · 27/02/2021 09:33

Ok for Biden to say that the USA can lock their terrorists up in Guatanamo bay. (Not that I approve of that for a solution) Can't stand Biden and have always thought he would be a disaster. This is the start of it I expect. How dare he tell other countries what they should do.

MrsBotibolsCruise · 27/02/2021 09:55

Biden notwithstanding (I don’t think the Americans will ever stop trying to boss us around!) Syria needs a fighting chance to keep on top of IS and try and prevent them reforming into a meaningful organisation.

How can we in good conscience lumber them with our home-grown jihadis, taking no responsibility for our part in either her radicalisation or letting her leave the country in the first place? It isn’t right or fair.

Absolutely no sympathy for Begum with this logic. As far as I’m concerned she can rot in jail for the rest of her life. And yes, that costs money but the hard fact is she is nobody’s responsibility but ours.

cherrybunx0 · 27/02/2021 10:05

@MrsBotibolsCruise do completely get what you're saying. I think the posters I take issue with are those who have such a high level of sympathy. regardless of your opinion on the situation, it's hard to argue with the things she has done - 15 or not.

RickiTarr · 27/02/2021 10:14

@MrsBotibolsCruise

Biden notwithstanding (I don’t think the Americans will ever stop trying to boss us around!) Syria needs a fighting chance to keep on top of IS and try and prevent them reforming into a meaningful organisation.

How can we in good conscience lumber them with our home-grown jihadis, taking no responsibility for our part in either her radicalisation or letting her leave the country in the first place? It isn’t right or fair.

Absolutely no sympathy for Begum with this logic. As far as I’m concerned she can rot in jail for the rest of her life. And yes, that costs money but the hard fact is she is nobody’s responsibility but ours.

I can sympathise with a lot of that, albeit reluctantly at points, but a) If they all eventually have to come back we need time for our security services and government to work out the plan for that and not be marched to anybody else’s timetable (not even Biden’s) and, b) what on earth is “our part in her....radicalisation”?

Being of part immigrant background myself I find that notion rather galling/offensive.

MrsBotibolsCruise · 27/02/2021 10:28

@RickiTarr I’m struggling to see how you can infer that my comment was in any way offensive to those of an immigrant background. As I have said before in my view this is not about race.

“Our part in her radicalisation” refers to the failure of local authorities and the government as a whole to recognise Shamima’s radicalisation and prevent her leaving the country to join ISIS. There were significant concerns about the beliefs (and actions) of her father. She was also apparently being indoctrinated online. Of course we cannot detect and prevent every single case, but the safeguards are there to attempt to step in before it’s too late.

If concerns were raised, they were clearly not acted upon in time. Ultimately the buck stops with Shamima for the decisions she made, but without inferring that she was in any way a victim, she was a prime candidate for radicalisation and we didn’t stop it.

RickiTarr · 27/02/2021 10:36

@RickiTarr I’m struggling to see how you can infer that my comment was in any way offensive to those of an immigrant background. As I have said before in my view this is not about race.

Yep fair enough I think I jumped a step there. I’ve also been insisting throughout that this isn’t about race.

What I was thinking of was that I have German Jewish relatives in one side who arrived here in 1939, fleeing Nazism and much further back on another side of the family I have Huguenot ancestors, who also arrived with little fleeing religious persecution. So I’m primed to think a certain way about what you do when you are given a rescuing hand like that.

I don’t really agree that local government is responsible for preventing people from joining evil cults, and I suspect we could have a long and meandering conversation about the nature of so-called “radicalisation” but this isn’t really the place for it.

PresentingPercy · 27/02/2021 10:39

Was she a prime candidate though? Did her school recognise it? Her school friends? Anyone who had contact with her? Probably not. Just like all the others. Most people were concerned about young men. Not 15 year old girls.

It’s not just the uk that the USA is asking to repatriate displaced people. It’s everyone. We are not the only country with ex fighters. There is an argument to say behind bars in a western country is better than still being in Syria.

Viviennemary · 27/02/2021 10:44

Prison is not the answer. I've read they are the very worst places for radicalisation.

MrsBotibolsCruise · 27/02/2021 10:51

I suppose my very simplistic view is essentially that we (the UK) should not be shirking our responsibilities in dealing with these British extremists by abandoning them in countries fundamentally less able to “deal” with them than we are. And who also have absolutely no obligation to do so.

What that means in terms of the fate of Begum and any others out there, I really don’t know. I suspect it’s far from simple.

MrsBotibolsCruise · 27/02/2021 10:56

And apologies for being a completely arsey pedant, but local authorities are very much at the forefront of recognising and preventing radicalisation. It’s in the updated PREVENT guidance. As a society we are all responsible. All a bit irrelevant in this case, as the horse has definitely already bolted.......

Viviennemary what are the alternatives to prison? Personally I’d sleep much better in
my bed at night (and feel safe to get the tube, go to concerts, go to a shopping mall) knowing she was locked up behind thick concrete and iron bars.

StarlightandSunlight · 27/02/2021 10:57

@PresentingPercy

The three girls where interviewed by police at school over another girl was who missing. They were just given letters to give to their parents and the parents were never told the missing girl was thought to have been radicalised or that they had been interviewed

RickiTarr · 27/02/2021 11:03

And apologies for being a completely arsey pedant, but local authorities are very much at the forefront of recognising and preventing radicalisation. It’s in the updated PREVENT guidance. As a society we are all responsible. All a bit irrelevant in this case, as the horse has definitely already bolted.......

Yes I’m aware, but I think we’d have to excavate right back to the underlying assumptions of that to find a point of complete agreement.

I’m not at all convinced it’s a fair or reasonable duty to place on LAs, schools and so on. At the very least, it’s completely insufficient but I also think it has the effect of causing a huge societal misdirection, because having adopted it as maybe a pragmatic mechanism, (an attempt to do something, anything at all) it also has the function of making LAs, schools etc look culpable when they fail at the impossible task allotted to them. Which distorts all our thinking.

As I say, though, that’s a big discussion all of its own.