Shamima Begum loses appeal

[TheRedBalloon]

Just seen that the Supreme Court have ruled that she cannot return to the UK, her Appeal has been unsuccessful.

We need to consider the principals.
Do we apply the same rule to anyone under the age of 16 - no they are considered juveniles.
What children have we stripped of their citizenships? Which British citizens have we stripped of citizenship？ It's far as I can see many of them had dual nationality

@RickiTarr repeating things and using capital letters isn't a great argument tactic. Anyway. It was legal, according to international human rights law, to take Jack Letts' UK citizenship because it didn't leave him stateless. He had dual citizenship in Canada. That's not the case here, Shamima Begum has no other citizenship (and, as others have noted, even if she did have Bangladeshi citizenship, Bangladesh have already said she's as good as hanged as soon as she crosses the border- the UK has at least given lip service to the idea that it won't extradite a criminal if they face the death penalty at the other side of it, so that should be a no-go).

@Wroxie

If Shamima was called Louise Smith and she'd gone to America to fight with a white supremacist terror organisation (which is not outside of the realm of 'stuff that could happen'- tonnes of people in the UK have been sucked into the q-anon bullshit which is at its core an ultra-right white supremacist group that shares members with reactionary militia groups) - would she be stripped of citizenship? Of course she fucking wouldn't. White Britons don't see Asians as citizens with the same rights. Even when they were born here. That's become blatantly clear.

You hit the nail on the head hard!

Good.

[quote Bedforme]Totally agree with this. Bangladesh have also said that she does not have citizenship, never applied and would not be granted it. This means that the government is making her stateless unlike Jack Letts

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47312207[/quote]
Boohoo 🥲

Only people with dual citizenship can be stripped of their British citizenship - it is against international law to leave someone stateless. That’s why this option was available with SB.

She was above the age of criminal responsibility. I don’t think this can possibly be ignored.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I thought the issue wasn't so much that she had been radicalised, but that she was unrepentant and regarded as a terror threat.

To be fair. When I saw a clip of her speaking she seemed as though she had severe mental health issues. Living in a place where there’s poverty and war surely must be horrific especially as she wasn’t born in Syria. I would be interested to hear a physiologist diagnose Shamima.

Considering she's still living in a refugee camp in Syria, among other dangerously radicalised and desperate people, it seems strange to expect that she would stand up and announce her hatred of Isis and the Islamic state. She'd be dead before she got back to whatever tent or hovel she sleeps in at night. With a few notable exceptions, you are a nasty and hateful (and not terribly bright) lot.

@PinkyParrot

A big warning to others. It's for the best (for the others who now won't follow her).

This is in no way going to function as a deterrent. If you'd told her at the time, while she was being radicalised, that it would mean she could never come back to the UK, do you think that would have stopped her?

It should be a question of whether she is a risk to the UK now and whether she would get more help and support here or somewhere else. She is British and we should be looking after her.

Fifteen year olds don’t know their arse from their elbow.

Greta Thunberg was 15 when she was campaigning.

@Crazycatlady83 you can still be British even though you have dual citizenship.

It’s neither here or there as Shamima was born here. All dual citizenship means is that you have a responsibility to both Countries as well as rights

@Sumwin1 clearly I’m aware of this. But no in the case when they strip you of it (that’s sort of the point)

She did make a mistake as a 15 year old. As an adult though, if ISIS still existed as it did, she would still be there and a member.
She only wants to come back as ISIS failed, not because she wanted to.

Have you heard the deplorable views she still holds? She's not sorry, she doesn't regret her behaviour (have you even read about what she's done??)

She is saying she wants to come back to the UK but is also saying things that would make any British person not want her to return.

If she genuinely wanted to return to the UK she wouldn’t be saying these things (even if she secretly believed them) she would act full of remorse and put on the tears so everyone feels sorry for her.
So either she doesn’t actually want to return to Britain, or she is too afraid to say she doesn’t have these views because of the people around her, or because she is mentally unwell (a 15 year old running away to join a terrorist organisation and stopping to buy hair removal cream first doesn’t sound like the actions of someone of sound mind).

Seeing this and the fact that chestfeeding/person has not been universally allowed to replace breastfeeding/mothers has made me have some hope that brakes are on the madness.

Not comparable. I'm gender critical and deplore the wokery that has taken over popular culture.

This is about setting legal precedent and making someone stateless. That is not synonymous with approving of someone's actions.

If you hate the issue of people co-opting female pronouns and demanding the shutting down of free speech and women's voices, you ought to understand that a person can say or do a deplorable thing, and yet retain equality in treatment under the law.

That is not what appears to be happening here. This is happening because this case was made a big press story. How justice is applied to someone under the law should not be dependent on or influenced by public sentiment or media sensationalism.

That is a precedent we do not want to see. It is the very same energy and force allowing people to be cancelled due to public shaming for having 'unpleasant views'

It’s the right decision

What sort of 15 year old is attracted to a medieval death cult? At the time she went, they were burning people alive in cages. And she wanted to be part of that? And having been part of that for years, you think she’s a safe person to come back?!

She has dual citizenship.
Which made it rather straightforward to strip her of British citizenship.
She’s not British she’s against Brits.
So out she goes.
Simple.

As others have said, the case determining her appeal against deprivation of citizenship can still go ahead. This decision merely says that she isn't entitled to come here for the appeal.

I have to be careful what I say on here so will make no comment about the decision re citizenship, but for those wanting us to 'bring her here' who do you think should do that? Sending the military in to that camp would start WW3 therefore it's got to be civilians. And the group that runs the camp are unlikely to release her to a man. So you're asking a female civil servant - one of my foreign office colleagues to go in there and get her?

Far too dangerous and I don't know anyone who would be up for that job.

I know some stateless (Muslim) people. They are descendants of people who were habitants of ‘Palestine - Occupied Territory’ after Israel seized the land. They have never even visited Palestine. Instead, they are reliant on the kindness of other nations to take them in and give them work and housing. I will reserve my sympathy for people like this.

I also knew a wonderful clever Syrian man who I worked with who was burned in a cage by ISIS. They are monsters.

Shamima Begum can rot. Despicable piece of shit.

[quote Wroxie]@RickiTarr repeating things and using capital letters isn't a great argument tactic. Anyway. It was legal, according to international human rights law, to take Jack Letts' UK citizenship because it didn't leave him stateless. He had dual citizenship in Canada. That's not the case here, Shamima Begum has no other citizenship (and, as others have noted, even if she did have Bangladeshi citizenship, Bangladesh have already said she's as good as hanged as soon as she crosses the border- the UK has at least given lip service to the idea that it won't extradite a criminal if they face the death penalty at the other side of it, so that should be a no-go).[/quote]
No but it is disingenuous race baiting nonsense to repeatedly say “If a white youth..blah de blah wouldn’t have happened” and then ignore repeated examples of a very close comparator who is a privileged white male whose crime was nearly identical and lost his U.K. citizenship.

She had an absolute right to Bangladeshi citizenship. It’s understandable why they’re trying to deny their own citizenship laws but it makes her a direct comparator to someone like me who only holds British citizenship but has an absolute to both German and Israeli citizenship if I wanted or need d to claim either. So she has - as it were - inalienable access time another citizenship. It’s just that Bangladeshi - again I understand why - has got political and tried to dodge doing so.

Therefore the UK government haven’t done anything too morally different from what they did to Mr Letts, and they’re doing exactly the same as they would do to me in comparable circumstances and I can’t see that it’s so appalling.

She will probably win in the end anyway.

Indoctrinated? Really? She sought out extremist views and joined ISIS. She has been an adult for a long time, and my feeling is she had choices to make and she made the wrong ones. She has to accept the consequenses of her actions as an adult. She is no longer a child, and as for groomed? No, she followed what she wanted. No one is controlled by an ideology. They have freedom of choice. Its not mind control. She could have got away and renounced terrorism. She didn't.

@MarieFromStTropez

I know some stateless (Muslim) people. They are descendants of people who were habitants of ‘Palestine - Occupied Territory’ after Israel seized the land. They have never even visited Palestine. Instead, they are reliant on the kindness of other nations to take them in and give them work and housing. I will reserve my sympathy for people like this.

I also knew a wonderful clever Syrian man who I worked with who was burned in a cage by ISIS. They are monsters.

Shamima Begum can rot. Despicable piece of shit.

Very hard to argue with any of that.

consequences (I can spell) !

[quote Crazycatlady83]@Sumwin1 clearly I’m aware of this. But no in the case when they strip you of it (that’s sort of the point)[/quote]
They should of not of stripped her because she is British though. She clearly was gullible to take herself off to Syria I think a lot of girls at 15 could be deemed as gullible and I do not want to upset anybody and sound racist.

Given her background... we don’t know what type of views influenced Shamima to go to Syria in the first place!