Shamima Begum loses appeal

[TheRedBalloon]

Just seen that the Supreme Court have ruled that she cannot return to the UK, her Appeal has been unsuccessful.

Fingers crossed we won’t hear her name again - ever - she’ll have to stay put!

I think that if the Supreme Court have taken that view with all the facts in front of them, then it's the right decision.

She was groomed and brainwashed while she was in this country as a minor and as a British citizen. She is our responsibility and she should come home and face trial.

It reminds me of how victims of child sexual exploitation were once called “child prostitutes” and held culpable for the abuse they suffered because they were 15 or so. This is no different really, other than the terrorism angle. She went there and was married off, she wasn’t a fighter.

She then lost 3 kids and a husband and was probably depressed and traumatised and therefore didn’t come across particularly well in interviews. I think judgment needs to be reserved and she needs to be given a chance at having her case heard in the U.K. - she should come home, whether that is home to prison or just home will be for a court to decide.

"I think the idea of you made your bed so you lie in it can be quite outdated - would we say this to a victim of domestic abuse because they married that man so should suck it up."

We wouldn't say that being a victim of domestic violence justifies punishment. But neither would a victim of domestic violence be allowed to go unpunished if they had committed crimes, even if their relationship was the catalyst of it. It might go some way in mitigation, but the punishment would still happen.

@Mabelann as an adult she shows no remorse.
Please don't compare that to sexual grooming.

@TangerineGenie and @RickiTarr

Like Shamima Begum, and a lot of other British people, I have the automatic right to citizenship to another country; in fact three - Israeli, Irish and Polish.

But no member of my family within living memory has even been to any of those countries, so why ever would I apply for citizenship to any of them?

Britain, a country to which I do have uncontested citizenship - a passport, a birthplace, a history - should never be entitled to strip me of it and leave me stateless just because I have some ancestors from elsewhere.

Begum had never held a Bangladeshi passport and had never been to Bangladesh.

Stripping Begum of British citizenship was a stupid act of political showmanship by Sajid Javed, but its wider implications should chill the blood for any British citizen who’s got even the faintest links to somewhere else.

That’s the positive aspect of being out of the EU - we don’t have to comply with the ‘human rights’ laws they impose.

@TableFlowerss Oh dear. You don’t know much about the law in this country, do you?

Like Shamima Begum, and a lot of other British people, I have the automatic right to citizenship to another country; in fact three - Israeli, Irish and Polish.

But no member of my family within living memory has even been to any of those countries, so why ever would I apply for citizenship to any of them?

Very similar to me then, and I would hate to be forced into certain options open to me if I’d done what she had done, but i wouldn’t do what she has done so I’m not remotely concerned.

15 is quite old enough to know that mass murder and rape and barbarism is wrong and you shouldn’t lie steal and cross the world to join in.

@addicted2spaniels

I think that if the Supreme Court have taken that view with all the facts in front of them, then it's the right decision.

That's exactly how I feel

I thought that she wasn't allowed back to the UK to be part of her appeal process ? It is difficult for her to be part of the appeal process where she currently is, so it has been paused until such time that she can take part in it from somewhere else ?
So it isn't a 'that's it she is barred' moment , more of a she isn't here and we are not going to do anything exceptional to bring her here, but if she gets somewhere she can take part in the appeal process, then it can happen ?

but i wouldn’t do what she has done so I’m not remotely concerned.

We wouldn’t, @RickiTarr, but our bored and pissy 15 year old daughters might.

@Unfucked

That’s the positive aspect of being out of the EU - we don’t have to comply with the ‘human rights’ laws they impose.

@TableFlowerss Oh dear. You don’t know much about the law in this country, do you?

😂😂😂

but i wouldn’t do what she has done so I’m not remotely concerned

Really? You're not remotely concerned with the precedent this sets? It's not within the realms of possibility that the government can strip citizenship from somebody it decides it doesn't like (and I'm not at all suggesting this is the case here) who has a vague claim to nationality somewhere else?

Because it fucking worries me.

Is 19 years old old enough to care for a baby safely, @RickiTarr?

How would you explain the leniency there, then, in the case of Louise Woodward?

We have to have equality before the law.

Like Shamima Begum, and a lot of other British people, I have the automatic right to citizenship to another country; in fact three - Israeli, Irish and Polish.

But no member of my family within living memory has even been to any of those countries, so why ever would I apply for citizenship to any of them?

In the case of Irish, you are entitled to make a claim for Irish citizenship if your grandparent was Irish, you are not automatically considered a citizen. There is a difference legally between that and the situation with Begum's Bangladeshi citizenship. The case hinges on this distinction. As I understand it, there are others in the same situation who are older who could not be deprived of their British citizenship in the same way because there was no evidence of any attempt to claim their Bangladeshi citizenship. But for those under a certain age, they are automatically considered a Bangladeshi citizen even if no claim has been made.

I agree it can seem absurd that had she been older she could not have been stripped of her British citizenship but from what I read that appears to be the case.

@Unfucked

Is 19 years old old enough to care for a baby safely, *@RickiTarr*?

How would you explain the leniency there, then, in the case of Louise Woodward?

We have to have equality before the law.

What kind of deranged whataboutery is that?

Come on. Completely different crimes, jurisdictions, decades, backgrounds, implications.

Craziness.

In the case of Irish, you are entitled to make a claim for Irish citizenship if your grandparent was Irish, you are not automatically considered a citizen. There is a difference legally between that and the situation with Begum's Bangladeshi citizenship. The case hinges on this distinction.

Exactly that.

No, it really isn’t.

You don’t get to be merciful to one British juvenile criminal, and banish another. Not in a just and civilised country.

@Numicon

Good. Anyone who smirks at the idea of beheadings can stay the fuck away.

Agree

👋👋👋👋 good riddance

@Unfucked

No, it really isn’t.

You don’t get to be merciful to one British juvenile criminal, and banish another. Not in a just and civilised country.

WTF?

I haven’t proffered opinion on Louise Woodward. I wasn’t merciful to her. I wasn’t whichever US jurisdiction prosecuted her.

The American legal system(s) isn’t/aren’t responsible for the judgements of the English courts. Nor vice versa.

@zoemum2006

It's outrageous. She's a UK born citizen.

Would they strip my white skinned child of her citizenship if she was groomed by terrorists?

I don't think so.

Actually @zoemum2006, anyone can be stripped of citizenship if they perform heinous enough acts. Jack Letts for example. Most countries have this ability. And although the government usually has to show that the person being stripped of citizenship has a reasonable right to claim this in another country, people can legally be made stateless.

What is concerning here is the point someone else made about why so many men have been able to come back when it is known they had ISIS involvement. Why is what she did worse than that?

What happened to SB's three babies? Has anyone established why and how they died?

I agree with the Supreme Court.

The men got back under their own steam. They are not in a refugee camp if they got back. I’m hoping we have big tabs on them!

The grooming issue wasn’t what the court was looking at. It was looking at whether she can come back to appeal the decision about her citizenship. They were persuaded she was a security threat. Plenty of people were groomed under the age of 18 and committed crimes. The crimes outweigh the grooming in the law.