Shamima Begum loses appeal

[TheRedBalloon]

Just seen that the Supreme Court have ruled that she cannot return to the UK, her Appeal has been unsuccessful.

@toocold54

No one is defending her and saying what she was right - they are saying she should be punished in the UK because she is British.

I hate when people are made out to be terrorist sympathisers just because they don’t wish a person to be treated like a terrorist would treat them.

I can guarantee that if someone came over here to join a terrorist organisation we would all be calling for them to be deported.

If someone committed a terrorist act here they would be deported after serving time in prison for their crime.

Normally if you commit any crime you are tried & punished in the country the crime was committed in- why should she be different?

Here she is.

www.itv.com/news/london

It’s abhorrent to compare her “grooming” to the grooming of the children in the sex abuse scandals in Rotherham (and other areas). Those children had absolutely no prior knowledge of the evil that the men were going to unleash on them. These men were nice to them before they raped and abused them. These children had no way of protecting themselves or gaining knowledge of what these men could be like until they were being abused. They tried to get help but were considered “prostitutes” by the Police, rather than the child victims they were.

SB actively sought out IS videos, watched beheadings etc (she admits this in her interview). And thought that all this was justified. There is no way she could claim she didn’t know what this death cult was all about before seeking out further information or joining them. She wasn’t a naive child being groomed to join a death group, but someone who sought them out because it fitted her ideology.

Totally agree with you @Crazycatlady83

JACK FUCKING LETTS. Jesus wept how many more times do people have to point this out.

The word " grooming" covers a ridiculously huge spectrum of behaviours and is often misused.

I personally think it's an awful decision. Seeing as we have allowed countless other people back in similar circumstances, whom remain largely unknown to us, why is Ms Begum being singled out?

The law doesn't seem to be applied equally. Had the press not tracked her down for a sensational story and reported it, she would possibly already be back in the country.

I am not comfortable with judicial decisions being made under the scrutiny of populism which is what appears to be the case here or else what is the explanation as to why similar judgement has not been handed down to other ex-Isis recruits returned and now living here?

Make your mind up. Is the issue age or is it citizenship? And how can it be racism when Letts has had the same treatment?

Well, the Supreme Court made a job of trying to decide and that was after all the other courts had had a go, so it’s not going to be resolved on Mumsnet @RickiTarr.

Nobody gives a shit about Shamima Begum, really. But we should all give a shit about the rule of law and access to justice. She should have been treated the same as every other delinquent 15 year old, and she wasn’t. Which sets a very dangerous legal precedent, particularly for British citizens who don’t have a second citizenship, but may have parents who did in the past.

It's the right result, given that she does not regret her choices.

If this thread isn't full of hate I don't know what is.

This isn’t just about the things she did as a child. It is about her actions and rhetoric as an adult that I think justify these actions.
I think her comment about the children blown up in the Manchester Arena bomb attack have sealed her fate in the general public’s eyes
Plus I am sure under the surface there are people who are infiltrated into these camps that have reported back to state she isn’t as innocent as she wants to appear.

@SendMeYourSpuds why would this thread not be full of hate?
She idolised isis has shown no remorse.
Lied and done terrible things to people.

She is not a very likeable person

@SendMeYourSpuds

If this thread isn't full of hate I don't know what is.

Are we meant to like her then?

Spuds I believe ISIS were also full of hate. It was pretty much their entire agenda.

You can’t blame people for feeling strongly about this.

There are two issue上：

1. she was a child when she left
2. She was a British citizen and taking away this status sets a precedent

We should set an example by letting her return here and facing British justice

For me her comments made her more believable.

Had she sat there crying and avowing remorse I'd have felt far more suspicious.

You wouldn't expect someone who had joined a terrorist group to suddenly find a heart would you? Really?

Clearly some would.

She would need psychological intervention and deradicalisation before that could happen. And she would only get that here.

100% agree @Twelly

Nobody gives a shit about Shamima Begum, really. But we should all give a shit about the rule of law and access to justice.

I was concerned about that at the start of the saga so looked into the law that had been introduced (sorry can’t remember if legislation or statutory instrument or what kind of creature it was -I’m not a lawyer, and don’t retain the technical terms reliably but I will try to look it up in a minute) to allow for stripping British citizenship from terrorists in EXTREMELY limited circumstances and I have to say I was satisfied with what I read.

It’s only due to a technicality about Daesh supporters not supporting a recognised foreign state (which they believe themselves to be but isn’t internationally recognised), that separate legislation was even required.

She should have been treated the same as every other delinquent 15 year old, and she wasn’t.

I’m passing on that description.

Which sets a very dangerous legal precedent, particularly for British citizens who don’t have a second citizenship, but may have parents who did in the past.

I am one of those Brits and I am totally unconcerned because I’m never going to do anything in the same ballpark as the very specific thing you have to do to risk your citizenship.

I was against extraordinary rendition, water boarding and Guantanamo and all those things. I still am.

I don’t wish death by judicial system or air strike in any of them. I won’t wish death on anyone.

However, we are under a wide ranging ongoing threat from a very dangerous and large group of people and if you read widely enough you will detect security concerns behind the scenes to turn your hair grey.

We need balance. We need deterrence. We need a de-escalation of racial tensions domestically.

@twelly

But

1. She was over the age of criminal responsibility so we assume she knows right from wrong
2. The law stripping dual nationals of their citizenship has been in place since 1981. This isn’t new, this isn’t setting a precedent. It’s a law we all have to live under and she has just fallen foul of it.

Before anyone says “grooming” - see my earlier comments.

@SendMeYourSpuds

If this thread isn't full of hate I don't know what is.

This isn’t hate. This is anger about the amount of apology ring wheeled out for the perpetrators.

When Raqqa needed liberating, when the Yazidis needed immediate help to avoid extermination and organised mass rape, MN was crawling with posters who wanted to go and talk to Daesh and earnestly told us that talking was always better than sending forces in to relive the oppressed. It was horrific. It was laughable. It was absolutely tragic. Innocent people were being murdered in huge numbers daily.

I just find the positions in Begum unbalanced. Very one note. Not willing to concede her wrongdoing was at least partly wilful. A suspicious number of posters want to insist it’s a race issue and ignore the very close comparator of Letts.

Oh dear @CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate, you appear to be a fair minded, intelligent, thinking person. I don't think this is for you at all.

Excellent - a little bit of sanity in this mad world of ridiculous political over correctness and positive discrimination.

Why on earth should she come back and cost us a fortune in anti terrorism costs.

Seeing this and the fact that chestfeeding/person has not been universally allowed to replace breastfeeding/mothers has made me have some hope that brakes are on the madness.

@WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants

Good.

Fir anyone who thinks it's the wrong decision...

Have you heard the deplorable views she still holds? She's not sorry, she doesn't regret her behaviour (have you even read about what she's done??)

I don't bloody well want her in the UK

I don't particular want child molestors and murders here either, and I don't particular want her, but she is a British citizen and so are people who commit all kinds of crimes. She holds no other citizenship. And while I don't care about her specifically, I do care about the legal precedent of stripping British citizens of their citizenship because we don't like their actions.

[quote Crazycatlady83]@twelly

But

1. She was over the age of criminal responsibility so we assume she knows right from wrong
2. The law stripping dual nationals of their citizenship has been in place since 1981. This isn’t new, this isn’t setting a precedent. It’s a law we all have to live under and she has just fallen foul of it.

Before anyone says “grooming” - see my earlier comments.[/quote]
She is not a dual citizen, though.
I don't care about her one way or another. But she's not anybody else problem to sort out.

I am one of those Brits and I am totally unconcerned because I’m never going to do anything in the same ballpark as the very specific thing you have to do to risk your citizenship.

@RickiTarr We’re adults, though. Begum was fifteen. Fifteen year olds don’t know their arse from their elbow.

She also didn’t even have a second citizenship - she had never been a Bangladeshi citizen, so removing her citizenship made her stateless. By contrast, Jihadi Jack was an adult at the time of his first crimes, and he was a dual citizen of Canada and Britain, so wasn’t made stateless.

I think it’s interesting that David Pannick is her lawyer - he’s a Public Law specialist. This really isn’t about an evil remorseless c*nt (which I agree she is) but about whether we’re all equal before the law. It’s so fundamental a right and it’s so obviously been disregarded here. It’s clearly been done to act as a deterrent for other lonely Muslim teenagers at home in their bedrooms, but if that’s the case, why not Irish Republican teenagers in Kilburn or teenage incels everywhere?