7 yr old wants to go to school... Reassurance please!

[Psychomumma]

Apart from a term at nursery (which she can't remember), my eldest daughter, like her three younger siblings, has never been to school. However, she has friends, cousins, etc who do, whom she sees regularly, who talk to her about school - naturally! I have no problem with that. However, every now and then she brings up the idea of school, we talk about it a bit, I explain some of the reasons (that she is able to comprehend, at 7) why I don't want her to go ... and it ends with her saying that she would like to go to school .

Now, I do not believe at all that my 7 yr old is better qualified than me to judge whether school is the best place for her to be at this point in her life. I am 95% certain that HE is far better for my children. However, it still hurts that she doesn't want to be HE'd (despite having no idea what the alternative is like).

Has anyone had similar experiences? How did you feel about/deal with it? Did your dc change their minds eventually? (NB: I'm asking for advice from other HE'ers... having had plenty of advice from non-HE'ers to send my kids to school on previous occasions, ta v much...)

'However, whenever I try to talk about my own experiences, I find that I am dismissed, or ignored, or, on one memorable occasion, told that the downsides of HE I had experienced in adult life and which I was trying to outline were the result of my inherent character flaws!'

I thought that I was right-I remember one thread where she was hounded off and gave up completely!

I keep repeating myself because I think the DD needs a hearing-if not at 7yrs-most definitely in a couple of years time. She is quoted as saying she wants to try school 'because' and then dismissed because she can't give the reasons! She doesn't know the reasons because she has no first hand experience.

It is a bit like me saying a Quaker meeting appeals-I would like to try one. If asked reasons ,all I could come up with is 'because I want to try it'. I don't know! I think the Quakers did a lot of good in history. I believe they sit in silence a lot. I know a little from a novel by Patrick Gale and I believe that Judy Dench is one and that is my sum total of knowledge-some of which might be wrong!
One day I shall pluck up courage and go. I expect that I will find that it isn't for me when I find out exactly what it entails. If it suited me, I would then be able to give a list of reasons. Until I have tried it all I can say is 'because I want to'

I will keep quiet-I realise that I am getting repetitive-I would be when I only have one point. Listen to the DD, even though young.

Very sensible-Tinuviel-she was taken seriously.

Tinuviel: Thanks for sharing your experience

Hi psycho.
I think actually you've raised an extremely interesting question for all parents whether they HE or not...at which point do we compromise our own ideals to allow our children choice?

I mean we all have things that we have imposed on our children, from what they eat, where they live, where they go, who is welcome in our homes, what time they sleep etc.
Education is just one of a million choices we make on their behalf.

At some point, of course, we all have to compromise very firmly held views in order to allow our children independence, the question is when.

Personally I think 7 is too young for that level of authonomy. At seven I was still the ultimate arbiter of the majority of my DCs lives, I'm sure you are too.

If I were you, I would stick with your own gut feeling at present and assess again in six months.

Well it hardly seems to matter now since everyone has pretty much gone on to say their piece regardless anyway: But my point Stayingsunnygirl wasn't that people who don't HE can't have an opinion on HE. Not at all.

I was responding to Seeker and my general point is that this is a public forum and I know that people debate HE here often which can lead to some quite thought provoking viewpoints etc.

I was merely questioning why, despite the request of the OP to only have the views of people who are HEing, some read what she wrote, but decided her wishes weren't worth respecting, that's all. Especially considering that the OP had recieved and acknowledged advice from non-HEers in the past.

And yes this is a public forum; but that still doesn't mean we can't acknowledge the wishes of others. I do sometimes hang out in the main education thread, and just occasionally someone posts who wants the views of school teachers, or those with kids in a certain school, or those who have experienced bullying etc. Guess what? I don't post where I know I do not fit that criteria, because it would then just be about me giving my opinion, not the OP. Guess I could sit back, justify myself and say well...this is a public forum after all. But I wouldn't want to and I don't.

Hi Litchick - I agree; the question of at what age, and in which situations, parents relinquish their authority in favour of their children's autonomy is a very interesting - and difficult - one. I think there can be no set rules, as every family and every child is different; some accord much more importance to some issues than others.

For me, the decision to HE is about many, more important factors than just my child's 'education', in the narrowest sense, and therefore I'm not prepared to relinquish my own convictions without a very good reason.

This is not to say that I'm not interested in my daughter's opinion. As I've said, I've tried to discover her reasons - she's either unwilling or unable to name them. I may try Pisces' idea of another trusted adult digging a bit. I am trying to give her a hearing - with difficulty, as she's not saying much!

In the current situation, I have to go with my gut instinct as her parent, and not let the feelings of a 7 yr old dictate such a serious decision, the ramifications of which she cannot fully comprehend .

I find disturbing the number of times in this thread that people have given the likelihood of her resentment - either now or in the future - as a reason to bow to her wishes. I do not believe that being a good parent must be equated with giving your children what they want - against your better judgement - just because they want it, so that they won't resent you later on.

Of course, as an adult, she may disagree with choices I made on her behalf, but I hope she never thinks such decisions were taken lightly, or out of anything but love for her.

Shiney - I first came onto this thread to answer a particular post that implied that those of us who don't HE are unwilling to make sacrifices for our children, and that our children aren't lucky to have us as parents for that reason.

I did consider starting another thread about it, but decided not to, given that threads about threads are considered beyond the pale on Mumsnet.

Once on the thread, I did also think about the issues raised by the OP, and by the respondants, and felt that I had something to offer to the debate. Psychomumma was kind enough to say that what I said had merit and she might be considering my advice.

Psychomumma - I am sure that your dd knows how much you love her, and how you are putting her needs first. At 7 (and not just at 7) it is not easy to distinguish 'want' from 'need' - ds2 wants call of duty modern warfare, and thinks he needs it too, but dh and I have decided he doesn't need it and we don't want it in the house. This decision has not made him happy, but we are pretty sure it is the right decision, so we are sticking by it. Hopefully he will understand that we made the decision out of love for him.

I do resent my parents for decisions made during my childhood, especially for the decision to do nothing when I was bullied for 6 years at school. I didn't feel love in their unwillingness to support me, and that has caused huge hurt over the years.

But, and it is a big but, I feel that my situation is very different to your dd's situation, and I honestly believe that she will look back and see the love in what you are doing for her.

'I may try Pisces' idea of another trusted adult digging a bit. I am trying to give her a hearing - with difficulty, as she's not saying much!

I don't think that there was any harm in replying if you liked one of my ideas!

I only used it once but I can recommend it.
In my case DS was 10 and I had remarried, changed my name and had 2 more DCs with the new name. A teacher at school thought that it was causing him problems having a different name. I didn't think so, but you can't just dismiss it. As his father had died I really wanted him to keep the name, I broached it with ex PIL who were lovely and said that although they wouldn't want it they would go along with what was best for DS. I didn't trust myself to talk it over with DS because I felt so strongly that his name was important and I thought he would regret it when older. I got someone else to bring it into conversation and DS was quite oblivious-it wasn't causing him any problems-he didn't even see that there was a problem! I had the satisfaction of knowing his true feelings. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what I would have done if he had wanted a change. I would have talked it over with him-luckily I didn't have to find out. The useful part of the exercise is that as they don't know they were being asked a question, you don't have to act upon it but it does give you something to ponder.You may find that DD is perfectly happy the way she is.

I am perhaps projecting too much of myself onto OP's DD.
I never have any fear of being 'the wicked witch of the west' in our house! Things that I am certain of e.g. a television will only be in a bedroom over my dead body!' A 13yr old will not have a computer game rated 18yrs etc. I have a constant mantra of 'you will thank me when you are older'!

If you are as certain about HE then I expect it would come under the same heading. My problem is that I don't see how anyone can be certain-but we are all different!

psychmumma - I don't think any of us can know whether our children will or won't resent us when we're older.
And frankly I don't think that should form part of our thinking process.
My DC are elite athletes, yet I limit what they take part in so they can have a broad education. Maybe they'll resent that? Who knows? I can only do what I think is right.

Similarly, DD has recently shown an interest in boarding school. DH has said no. It goes agaisnt everything he believes in and he belives it wiould ultimatley be damaging. He's doing what he thinks is right.

A friend of mine's DS has decided he no longer believes in God and doesn't want to attend church. They are having to assess this situation which gioes right to the heart of deeply held beliefs.

And finally, I will share someting that we hold very dear in casa Litchick - doing something because everyone else is doing it, is never a valid reason.

I think in the case of church that you have to go with the DC-you have no choice. I took mine-it was easy when little, it got more difficult when they got to 5/6 but at 8yrs I could see no point in making them because it would be entirely counter productive and as soon as they were able they would refuse ever to set food in a church again. I have seen it countless time. My own father was brought up by strict Methodists and signed the pledge at 8 yrs old not to drink or smoke. Needless to say he did both! He didn't set foot in a Methodist chapel again, ever. BIL was an altar boy and hasn't been since a teenager, he is an atheist. That is one place where it is a lost cause to force. You can insist that they go but you can't insist that they believe, and you can't insist that they go gladly! The fact that it goes to the heart of their deeply held beliefs is tough. There is absolutely nothing to say that because you have a belief in God, your DC will. My atheist friend never took her DC to church, but his life now revolves around his local church.
Any choice of education can be insisted upon-a belief in God is in a completely different league. They are very misguided if they think they have a choice. If they are sensible they will let him stay at home and he might eventually follow their example. My father finally got confirmed in the Cof E, but only when he was mid 50's and he had got over his childhood of forced chapel attendance.

sorry-obviously foot not food!

School is childcare. How on earth can anyone be offended by that statement?
Children are the responsibility of the school from registration onwards, often from/to breakfast and after school clubs.

Many children are lucky that we are able and willing to educate them outside of an environment that would do them no good and, often, harm.

Bubble - I think what people feel offended by is the implication that parents only send their children to school because it suits them to have free childcare, rather than that being a useful side-effect of them getting a good education in a school environment.

If parents are happy with the education and childcare their children are receiving at school, surely they won't be offended?

When you word it as "school is childcare", it implies that it is only childcare, which makes it sound insulting even if that's not how you mean it. School, done properly, is education and childcare.

Fair enough.

I shall amend it to 'school is childcare and in some cases also provides a good education'

I sent mine for the education-the child care part is useful, in that you can then go out to work, but that wasn't the important part for me. I wanted mine to have the best possible start in life, unconditional love, security and a good education to give them the widest possible choices in life. I can give the first 2 easily, but I can't give the third. (I am speaking personally here-not for others).

I would love to have schools in our area that inspired confidence.

DS1 was bullied by his (male, football-loving) peers and then used as a support worker for a classmate with SEN. "Oh, isn't he wonderful with her!"

"Yes. I'm sure he is, but he's 11 and now bored with school."

DS4 has come home after two months in reception with the 'C' word. Nice.

We live where we do because of the schools, it was the top priority in buying a house. I am conscious that I am speaking from an area of good state schools, and they are not all as good. I would HE rather than send to a poor school.

As a non-HEr (not an issue yet, DC less than 1yr!) but a teacher who has done years of research into HE, I would say decide now when, if ever, you think you will let your DC make the decision about going to school. Once you have an age in mind, talk to your DC and explain that, for the moment, things are going to continue as they are, but come xxxx they will be able to have a trial at school to see if it suits them.

When they have friends over, encourage DC to talk about all the fun things she gets to do while they are at school. Maybe there would be provision for your DC to attend an after school club to have the experience of something she chooses to do which is vaguely school related? Some schools facilitate clubs by sports agencies etc. which your DC might like to join as a way of having something fun in common with friends.

Whatever you decide, stick to it.

I haven't read the whole thread, psychomumma, but a woman I know went through this recently. She is an unschooler, and in the end decided that if her son wanted to go to school then that was actually his choice to make, and it didn't stop him being autonomously educated at all, in fact it was respectful of his autonomy. It was a real pain, practically speaking, managing the school run for him and everyday life for her other children.

His experience was not a terrifically happy one, and after half a term he'd had enough.

He's a similar age to your child, or a bit older (maybe 8?)

So there is the option of saying "ok, we'll try school. If you don't like it, we hoick you out again. If you do like it, we'll support you in going. No big deal either way".

The blog of the person is here: the beginning of the experiment and here is the post at the end of the experiment.

pisces

So did we. Our son went to a school that has just received an Ofsted 'outstanding'.

DS2 is still there and, after two terms, his class teacher didn't know that he had an elder brother in the school. I don't expect a teacher to know my child intimately, but a lack of knowledge of basic info like that doesn't suggest a whole lotta 'face time'? He also sat for a whole day with the left side of his face dribbling and slumped like a Picasso (Bell's Palsy).

I suppose it depends how we define 'good' schools?

I never know why people place so much emphasis on Ofsted reports. The only thing to do is visit on a normal working day and see it 'warts and all'. I would be put off by little things-e.g. the Head not knowing every DCs name.

I once took the daughter in question on an Open Day to a local school which had excellent Ofsted results; we were shown around by the Deputy Head, who did not even acknowledge the existence of the several children accompanying their parents round the school. It was actually quite bizarre - these were children who might be coming to her school in a few months, and she wasn't even interested enough to ask their names, let alone make them feel welcome or involved in the process...

I wouldn't touch the school in that case, psychomumma. An excellent Ofsted doesn't mean that it is an excellent school! Even an excellent school might not be an excellent school for your DC. They are all individuals and one size doesn't suit all.
The case of Bubble's DC's teacher not knowing that he had an elder brother in the school is a bit more complex. She might be new to the school and it takes time to work it all out. I have been to the same schools doing supply for years and so I can take a register and say 'you must be x's brother,' but I couldn't do it to start with and it doesn't make me a better teacher.