7 yr old wants to go to school... Reassurance please!

[Psychomumma]

Apart from a term at nursery (which she can't remember), my eldest daughter, like her three younger siblings, has never been to school. However, she has friends, cousins, etc who do, whom she sees regularly, who talk to her about school - naturally! I have no problem with that. However, every now and then she brings up the idea of school, we talk about it a bit, I explain some of the reasons (that she is able to comprehend, at 7) why I don't want her to go ... and it ends with her saying that she would like to go to school .

Now, I do not believe at all that my 7 yr old is better qualified than me to judge whether school is the best place for her to be at this point in her life. I am 95% certain that HE is far better for my children. However, it still hurts that she doesn't want to be HE'd (despite having no idea what the alternative is like).

Has anyone had similar experiences? How did you feel about/deal with it? Did your dc change their minds eventually? (NB: I'm asking for advice from other HE'ers... having had plenty of advice from non-HE'ers to send my kids to school on previous occasions, ta v much...)

I read about this last night and thought long and hard about what/whether/how to reply.

trying v hard not to be judgmental so i will spare you what i think about your dilemma- hardly relevant anyway as i don't HE and don't intend to (but who knows... life is full of surprises).

What i do want to say, however, OP, is that you have chosen to follow a different path from mainstream society- fair enough, no one should judge you for it. however, you clearly find it hard to cope with differing opinions and in particular you don't want to be made to feel like you're in a minority or "different" from people who offer even a very mild criticism of your choice (such as those here on MN). therefore imagine just how hard it must be for your dd, who is only 7, and didn't really chose this path. it may objectively be the best for her (and you as her mother will know better than anyone else), but please try to and be understanding and supportive of her feelings of being "different' and strange with respect to her school educated friends and cousins. you need to acknowledge she feels this way and support her through it.

it sounds to me as you mildly resent her for wanting to conform.

I think that to be the eldest of four 24/7 must be hard, in however loving a family. School and being the middle one of twenty-plus might be a great relief. Well done you OP, for making her confident enough to want to try it.

An interesting thread. Much of the disagreement seems to depend on whether one believes that parenting should be about obliging our children to do the 'right' thing (thereby saying that there is such a thing as objective 'right'and 'wrong') even if that goes against their personal inclinations, OR whether parents' ultimate goal should be that their children 'feel' happy and self-fulfilled, on their own terms of reference. Also, is there a point, an age, at which one attitude should give way to the other - and if so, when?

Much has been made of whether the OP's dd will resent her decision to HE later on in her life, as if this should be the yardstick against which parental decisions should be measures.

Is it morally permissible, even perhaps morally preferable, for parents to insist on the 'right' behaviour/course of action (in their own view), even if it causes their child to suffer?

Or is it better to allow children the freedom to make decisions/pursue courses of action that the parents think are 'wrong' (either morally, or simply that they believe will bring the child unhappiness either now or later on) as at least then the child is responsible for their own un/happiness, and can't blame it on you, the parent.

There are scenarios in which a parent might insist on a certain course of action, against the wishes of their children, which causes their children to suffer, but with the best of intentions, really believing in the 'rightness' of their actions. The child may never, either then, or later as an adult, accept the decision of their parents; but does this fact alone make the parents' decision wrong?

Isn't it part of being a parent to make the uncomfortable, difficult decisions, without benefit of crystal balls or hindsight? Or is it more important to us that we are 'liked' by our children, and that they do not resent us? Is it easier to be their friends, rather than their parents?

This is a general post (and long, sorry!), rather than specific to HE, but it seems there's more going on behind many of these posts than meets the eye...

I feel that you are a successful parent if you bring up a DC who has the courage of their own convictions, who thinks for themselves and isn't easily led, who can form relationships with others, knows how to be a good friend, who is emotionally stable,has a moral code and is a useful, honest member of society. Apart from all that you have done the job well if as an adult they want to spend time with you, becuase they like you rather than from a sense of duty and they are secure in the fact that they have your unconditional love and it doesn't waver even if they might not agree on fairly fundamental things. I have just had a lovely chat with my youngest on Skype from his university room. He called me-for nothing more than a chat, it is a very easy relationship.

My argument on this thread really isn't based on HE or school. It is about control. I feel that a lot of parents bring their DC into the world and if they think something then the DC should think the same. It is highly unlikely in my family because DH and I are about as opposite as you can get in most things- but it doesn't matter.

I think that you have to separate out your beliefs and your DCs. Up to 5 yrs you are not very separate and so you can control. 5yrs to 8yrs is more of a grey area, where you could argue that the parent still knows best. From 8 onwards I think you need to realise that they have their own thoughts.

e.g.
If my mother is a vegetarian because she thinks eating animals is cruel I have no problem with it. I fully understand that all her cooking will be vegetarian and that I won't get meat at home. I have a huge problem if she keeps telling me emotive stuff about 'dead flesh' and if she tells grandma that 'pisces can't be given meat because her mother doesn't eat meat' or that I can't choose a meat dish on a menu because my mother doesn't eat meat! (not after the age of 8 anyway)

If you have 4 DCs the odds of them all thinking the same on every issue is very low IMO, and the odds of them all thinking exactly the same as the mother is even lower.
My 3 DSs are very different, despite the same upbringing. I allow them to be different.
If I was HEing and one wanted to go to school I would just have to stir myself into getting up in time for school and if I wanted to go out beyond 3 o'clock with the others I would have to make arrangements for the one at school-not difficult-people do it all the time when they work. I would try and get beyond the mind set that a DC would rather be down the park with mum and siblings than in a classroom-some would much rather be in the classroom. (strange though it may seem to some people!)

Parents should work with the DC they have-not mould into the DC they would like!

I think for me it depends on the reasons why the parent wants the child to do X instead of Y - if it's because Y is likely to cause them harm, or because Y is just not practically do-able, then I think it's the duty of the parent to insist on X. And, if the child wants to know why, then or later, then the parent would be able to explain the reasons. The child might disagree, but hopefully will understand the reasoning.

But if a parent wants X because of their own preference or convenience, then that's a different category.

In this case, the OP hasn't given any compelling reasons for her decision. Maybe she has some she doesn't choose to discuss, or maybe not.

I don't think the risk of a child resenting a decision should stop you doing what you believe is right, but I think it is a useful yardstick when you want to do something based solely or mainly on your own preference, when the child has thought about it and prefers Y.

I would agree AMumInScotland. I always insist if it is harmful or not practical and I have firm reasons that are not just based on my preference. They would be the sort of reason that would stand scrutiny later e.g. a 14yr old wouldn't just be wandering the streets at 10pm with friends.

Education is a different matter-schools are main stream and most DCs attend one. It is the norm. I can see why people don't want to be part of the norm, but if their DC wants to be part of the norm I think that you would have to have compelling reasons that would stand scrutiny when the DC is an adult.They would have to be beyond parental preference.

You have to bear in mind that your DC gets their personality from a huge gene pool. You can produce a DC who is a complete alien to you! My mother had an easy job with me and DS1 because we are very like her. DS2 is a closed book-he is like his paternal grandfather-and he was much more difficult to deal with. My mother could treat me and DS1 in a certain way and it was 'right' for us, treat DS2 in the same way and it was 'wrong'. One size never fits all. We still fail to understand DS2!!

I was a very shy DD and I had never been to nursery, playgroups, away from my mother for more than a few hours and couldn't be left at a birthday party without crying. A prime case for my mother saying 'pisces can't possibly do school yet'. She couldn't have been more wrong! I don't know why, but I had the gut feeling I would like it. There were no pre visits or settling in half days in my time. You went to school on your first day, mother dropped you at the door and you did the whole day, school dinner and all. I loved it.
If I were to get a DIL who was set on HE and had 4 DCs I would be very surprised if at least one didn't take after me. I would have to bite my tongue not to voice an opinion.
Out of our family of 3 DC I was the only one to feel like that-I think that both brothers would have liked HE. It would have driven my mother up the wall so there was no question of it-but if she had I don't see why she would have had to treat us all the same.

Unless OP has a compelling reason why DD shouldn't try school, one that has nothing to do with the feelings, beliefs or convenience of the mother, I don't think that anyone can give reassurance that keeping her at home will work out for the best. It is a gamble-one that I wouldn't take.

I do not Home Ed now, but am actively considering it as one of my options for junior school. I have also had a mix of home edding, formal schooling, distance education myself.

My advice to OP is that she needs to examine for herself why she HEs and whether if some of the reason is "to suit the individual child" whether denying her daughter a chance to try school still fits that ethos.

If it is cruel to deny a 7 year old who wants to go to school the chance to go, it is cruel to deny a 7 year old who doesn't want to go to school the chance to HE.

Bubble-not everyone can HE even if they want to. A lot of people work, long hours, full time, just to keep their heads above water finamcially. A lot of people have built up careers in things they love doing-they have no desire or inclination to have anything to do with child development. Having a DC doesn't mean that you want to spend every minute with them-it would send some people climbing the walls! This is always trotted out as if anyone could do it. Some, like my mother, might have a go out of a feeling of duty, but she would make a terrible job of it. You have to want to do it, for it to be successful. I would do it if they were utterly miserable and I had tried all avenues, but I really wouldn't want to. I need time to recharge my batteries in silence, in an empty house, in order to be a good mother. It would also bore me rigid.
I love being a mother, but there are hours and hours to spend with my DCs, we are only talking about them being out of the house for 30 hrs a week and only for about 30 weeks a year.
HE is not the norm. I was surprised by the percentage of DCs who are privately educated, I can't remember what it is but it is less than 7%-therefore the percentage in HE must be lower. Over 90% of DCs are state educated.
To HE both parents can't have full time jobs. Their whole life has to revolve around it. It isn't the same as trying school. The parent merely has to get the DC to school in the morning and collect in the afternoon. It doesn't require much effort!
I admire someone that I know because she is adamantly against school and yet when her DD decided she wanted to try it she went along with it. The DD sensibly decided that it would be easier at primary school, so started in year 6. She kept at it and changed to secondary. After a couple of terms of yr 7 she decided it wasn't for her and went back to HE. Much better all around. She had tried it for herself-knew that she wasn't missing something she wanted and the mother had the satisfaction that DD wasn't going to blame her in later years.
It is easy for OP, she selects a school and takes her there-I think she would jump at it if it were to put DD off-her real fear is that DD will take to it like a duck to water. (If she does she should be pleased for DD, not worrying about her own feelings)

I do wish that people wouldn't equate the 2 systems.e.g. my doctor has 4 DCs (she works full time)her husband is also a doctor. They are doctors because that is what they chose. If one of their DCs says one day -'I don't think I like school I want to HE' -are you really saying that one of the parents should say 'of course darling I will stop being a doctor'! I don't see why they should-they wanted to be a doctor-not to have 20 yrs off educating DCs!
At least if a DC goes to school they have adults who are passionate about working with DCs and the way DCs learn-the other way around you may well get a parent who is resentful that they have been pushed into something they never envisaged when they had DCs.

Yes. School is childcare. Lucky are the children whose parents can and will sacrifice to allow their children to HE.

The secondary school my DS was offered has an alarming rate of staff turnover. 'Classroom Supervisors' have been used for the whole of one teacher's maternity leave, so I don't think there are necessarily 'passionate' teachers everywhere?

I'm not sure why it's okay to send a child to school due the feelings, beliefs or convenience of the mother (parent?) but not okay to HE on the same basis.

If the op had said that her 7yo had said she didn't want to go to school anymore I would think that the majority of responses on the education thread would be along the lines of 'oh don't worry, they all go through this stage, she'll get over it, it will pass'.
Why then is it not okay to give a similar response to a parent of a HE child who expresses a wish to go to school?

If the parent considers HE to be the best option for their child then surely they should be supported in that option.
7yo should have their opinions recognised but at this age it's the parent's who can usually see the bigger picture.
The situation could always be reviewed at a later date.
And I wouldn't let the fear of my child possibly resenting me in the future deter me from taking a course that I thought would be of more benefit to them in the long term.

Of course there aren't Bubble. There are schools I wouldn't touch with a bargepole!
My first requirement from a school is that the teachers are passionate about their job.

I can understand fully why some people would prefer home. I am just saying that when people trot out 'why can't a schooled DC choose HE' that it isn't that easy. Some excellent mothers can't stand even 2 years as a SAHM! You don't have to devote your life to your DC to be a 'good mother'. If someone trains 5 yrs to be a vet, and loves their job, they should be able to combine it with motherhood-they shouldn't have to take 13yrs career break or more because their DC wants to choose HE.They can still be a fantastic mother.
My SIL was tremendously enthusiastic when she started HE with 3 small DCs. She has beeen doing it 14yrs. She isn't the same person. 14 yrs is a long time! She is tired of it and wants to devoted her time to her new interest, but she is stuck with several more years of HE. Her youngest isn't getting what the oldest got.
HE is not an easy choice. School makes no demands on the parent, even the most dysfunctional of parents can get them there.
(It is however much better for the DC to get involved and work with the school).

I suspect that Psychomumma thinks that her DD does know her own mind. I don't think she would have a problem with her trying school if she could be sure she wouldn't like it and that she would be happily back home after a month, telling the younger siblings that it is much better with mum. Her real fear is that DD will find it more exciting and stimulating than HE and it will rub off on the younger siblings who will want to try it too.
I can't see the harm in putting it to the test-(if DD comes before mother's feelings).

'7yo should have their opinions recognised but at this age it's the parent's who can usually see the bigger picture.'

The danger is that in 10yrs, 20yrs time DD might not agree with the parent's bigger picture. At 7 I dare say that you can play the 'mother knows best card'-I would be less happy at 8 or 9yrs and I wouldn't risk it after the age of 10yrs. A DC should be listened to. OP still hasn't given any reasons why it is best for DD-she has only said why it is best for her and the siblings.

School is, on the whole, fun and broadens children's horizons. I can understand why parents might choose to HE in particular circumstances (local schools are very bad, child has learning issues etc) but, as a general rule, I think school is a great and normal childhood experience and that it is quite legitimate for a child to want to go there!

The op dd is 7yo now. A lot can change in 6-12m, never mind 10y. The op asked for advice for now. She may or may not feel differently in the future.

Bonsoir - you feel school is great, some people don't or they think that HE is the better option for their child - regardless of the quality of schools in their area.

Of course the op only wanted views from people who HE. She knew very well that everybody else would say that the child has a point and that doesn't suit her because the decision to HE seems as much about her well being as it is about that of the children.

I'm not sure how this thread has become a defending HE thread. The op asked for reassurance regarding her dd and this thread has seemingly descended into why school would be better rather than a support thread. As the op had said she has heard all the arguments from parents of school-ed children and was looking for another perspective from parents who do actually home-ed. Not necessarily agreeing with her but from a HE point of view. There doesn't seem too much chance of that here. Hopefully she's found a HE list that is more helpful to her.

"because the decision to HE seems as much about her well being as it is about that of the children"

Whether that is true or not about the op (and the home-educators I know take the well being of their children more seriously than their own) the same could be said about many parents who send their children to school. The home-educators I know take the well being of their children more seriously than their own. Sending their children to school would be the easier option for some and they decide against it for the benefit of their children.

'However, every now and then she brings up the idea of school, we talk about it a bit, I explain some of the reasons (that she is able to comprehend, at 7) why I don't want her to go ... and it ends with her saying that she would like to go to school '

This is the nub of the whole thing. I know that she only wanted HEers to reply because she wanted people to agree. She wants them to reassure her that they have had the same and that they have kept them at home and it has all worked out well in the end. Absolutely no one, even the most passionate supporters of HE, can give her this assurance. OP hasn't given us her reasons but from the extract above she has given them to DD several times and, even at 7yrs, DD isn't impressed by them. Maybe when she is old enough to comprehend she will agree with her mother's reasons but, and this is a big but, she might not. She might be even more unimpressed when she has the advantage of age. No one can reassure because absolutely no one can say which way it will go.

I hadn't intended to be school v HE. I am all for supporting parents who want to exercise choice and HE. I am against expecting your DC to think the same as you, merely because you gave birth.
It is difficult for someone who doesn't like school to understand someone who loves it. I think it was MuminFaith (maybe wrong name) who assumes that DCs tolerate school and makes the assumption that if Mum says 'you are having a day off -we are going to the seaside' the DC will be overjoyed-she has no understanding that the DC might be in tears saying 'we can't do that I will miss....Why can't we go on Saturday, and I don't care that it is crowded on Saturday'. We are all different.

At 7yrs I think that Psychomumma could continue (this school year) to trot out her usual reasons but, if the DD continues to be unimpressed, I can't see any possible harm in her saying 'OK -you can give it a try in September. We will review it at half term and you can come out if it isn't as you thought. That way her DD can't turn round in 10,20yrs and say that she wasn't listened to. I am convinced OP would do it like a shot if she thought DD would be back home in Oct-her huge fear is that DD will be there until the end of year 13.

Even if you ignore all my advice, I think that my idea of letting her chat to a trusted person (with no vested interest or leanings either way), to find her true state of mind, is an excellent one. If it is done in a sensitive way DD will have no idea that she is being asked her opinion. OP has nothing to lose because if DD doesn't know she was being asked a question she is still free to ignore her.

I also think people would have felt a lot more sympathetic if the OP had given some of her reasons for HEdding. As far as i can tell the only thing she's explicitly said is that the school run would be a hassle

of course she doesn't actually have to justify her choice but in order to get support it would help to give a fuller picture. her post sounds very dogmatic and that always raises alarm bells.

if the op had said "dd goes to school x, she is miserable and wants to go to school y, but i won't consider it because it's too much of a bother for me and i want her absolutely to go to school x" people would have been equally challenging. it might have been, for example, that school x offered something that was crucial to OP (eg religious ethos) but in the absence of an explicit mention of the fact it would have been hard to be supportive.

incidentally, whenever someone posts on the opposite dilemma (dc doesn't want to go to school), they regularly get replies suggesting HE.

Bubble said:

"Yes. School is childcare. Lucky are the children whose parents can and will sacrifice to allow their children to HE."

I considered starting a new thread to answer this stunning piece of bigotry, but decided to answer it here instead.

This post suggests that the vast majority of parents, myself included, are so ignorant and selfish that we simply shove our children into the nearest school with little or no thought for their best interests, and that parents who home educate are the only ones who care about their children.

I have the greatest of respect for people who have decided that the school system is not the best place for their children to learn, and who are educating them at home. Is it too much to expect similar respect in return?

I have suggested several times that if a DC isn't happy at school that they consider HE. It is never on the HE threads and so HEers never see them and I come out being dogmatically pro school-which isn't true. School doesn't suit every DC.

I wish OP would come back and tell us why DD is much better off in HE-leaving out all the reasons as to why it is better for mother that she HEs.

I don't think this thread has become about defending or attacking HE. No-one on here is saying that it is a bad thing to HE a child, if everyone is happy about that decision.

The big question is at what stage it becomes wrong to ignore what a child has repeatedly said they want, when there are no overwhelming reasons against it.

That goes for whether the child is HE and says repeatedly that they want to try school, or if they are in a school and hating it and want to change, or wants to choose the secondary school their friends go to, or if they hate all schools (having tried more than one and not been able to make it work).

I've pointed out on many "My child is unhappy at school" threads that HE is there as an option, if they can make the practicalitites work. I don't know how many have seriously considered it, or how many other people reading the thread have gone on to consider it, but the information (and opinion) is being put out there for consideration.

I'd argue the same thing on "My child wants school X but I prefer school Y" threads - if there isn't an overwhelming reason for you to go with X, why not let the child decide?

If there are overwhelming resons, then yes the parent decides. But when there aren't, it's a good idea to listen to children's opinions, if they seem to be based on a reasonable level of understanding and are consistent over time.