7 yr old wants to go to school... Reassurance please!

[Psychomumma]

Apart from a term at nursery (which she can't remember), my eldest daughter, like her three younger siblings, has never been to school. However, she has friends, cousins, etc who do, whom she sees regularly, who talk to her about school - naturally! I have no problem with that. However, every now and then she brings up the idea of school, we talk about it a bit, I explain some of the reasons (that she is able to comprehend, at 7) why I don't want her to go ... and it ends with her saying that she would like to go to school .

Now, I do not believe at all that my 7 yr old is better qualified than me to judge whether school is the best place for her to be at this point in her life. I am 95% certain that HE is far better for my children. However, it still hurts that she doesn't want to be HE'd (despite having no idea what the alternative is like).

Has anyone had similar experiences? How did you feel about/deal with it? Did your dc change their minds eventually? (NB: I'm asking for advice from other HE'ers... having had plenty of advice from non-HE'ers to send my kids to school on previous occasions, ta v much...)

My experience on here has been that home educators here are happy to debate, and that there have been whole threads of debate that have started from posts that are not specifically asking for support. To me it seems like the difference between posting on breast and bottle compared to AIBU despite all the threads being in Home Ed. The OP doesn't want debate about the benefits of HE/school for individual children - she had a certain set of questions she wanted answered by people with a different perspective to the opinions she's already got from people in real life.

Most of you wouldn't go to a breast and bottle thread looking for support and ignore the OP's request for information in favour of asking them why they have the views on feeding that they do (unless it was something awful - like is it ok to feed my two day old baby whisky and coke in their bottle), but its fine to discuss things on more neutral threads about newspaper articles or something.

I'm only responding to the OP here.

At that age all children want to be is normal and that means being like their friends. Your dd thinks that she is different and she doesn't like that, she wants to fit in with everyone else.

Is there any way you can contact your local schools and ask if you and your dd can go in and have a look around? Perhaps she could spend the day there? At least then she'll have a good idea of what it's like to be at school.

I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that if you don't allow your dd to try these things, then she may end up resenting you. She obviously thinks that her cousins are privvy to something that she is not.

Hopefully if she's spent a bit of time at a school she'll know what they are on about so won't feel so left out. She may also decide that she prefers it at home.

You could also ask some other school children, perhaps her cousins, if they enjoy going to school or would they prefer to be at home. Because most children will say that they would prefer to be at home, hearing that may make her feel priviledged in some way.

Finally, if she does still decide that she wants to go to school, what would you do? Have a word with your local education authority, is there not a way where she can be schooled part of the week and remain at home for the rest? Try to see this from your dd's point of view. She'll have a lot more respect for you and your decisions if she feels that she has been listened to at least.

So, psychomumma, you are saying that you don't want to talk about HE to anyone who doesn't HE? Are you not interested in hearing the views of people who chose to send their children to school?

That really exemplifies the attitude I'm talking about - I don't make judgements about people who HE, but many people who HE feel no such compunction - the unspoken view seems to be "If you cared about your children as much as I care about mine, you'd HE too" There is no thought that the decision to send children to school may be a carefully considered one, because "school is just childcare"

Even if a HE er has been to school themselves, they haven't been to school now. School has changed a lot in the last 20 years!

How can you discuss the pro and cons of school unless you have actually lived it?

Psychomumma - it was the statement that home educated children are lucky that their parents have made the neccessary sacrifices, which made me join this thread. That poster is very clearly implying that those of us who do not home educate do not care for our children or their futures - we're just happy to have them off our hands with school providing our childcare!

I cannot and will not simply turn a blind eye to such prejudice and judgementalism. And when this opinion is not contested by other home educators, it leaves the clear impression that that is what you all think of those of us who send our children to school.

And whilst I have not home educated myself, I have a very close friend who does, and have talked to her about it. I have also had three children go through the primary school system, so probably have more experience of it as a parent than someone who has only ever home-educated - and thus I felt that I had something to bring to the debate.

If one of my children were asking to leave school and be home educated, I would welcome discussion and advice from both home educators and from people whose children were in school. I would not want to shut myself off from a potential avenue of advice or support.

Seeker, you are wilfully missing the point. I, like almost every HE'er I know, am delighted to talk to anyone about HE - those who do it, those who don't. But this particular post was asking for other HE'ers experiences of a particular situation, which, by definition, non-HE'ers would not have encountered. If you want to start a general post debating the pros and cons of HE as against the pros and cons of school (and they are not the same thing), I'll happily come and join you.

And I left school just over ten years ago, and have followed with interest not just education in the media but also in the lives of my friends and their children. So I don't think I'm as out of touch as you suggest.

I think you are the one who is betraying insecurity and over-sensitivity about your decision to send your child to school. If the view you describe is 'unspoken', on what are you basing your assumptions of such prejudices?

For you 'the decision to send children to school may be a carefully considered one', but really - what percentage of parents do you truly believe took a conscious, considered 'decision' and 'chose' to send their children to school, rather than to HE? Is it not true that the vast majority of parents give other options no thought at all, because school at 4.5 is simply 'what happens'? I hope, for the sake of the children, that more parents were like you and did actually consider all the available options before deciding on the one which best suited their child and their family. But I think you should admit that we are talking about a small minority.

Sorry stayingsunnygirl - cross-posted!

Bubble asked "If it is cruel to deny a 7 year old who wants to go to school the chance to go, it is cruel to deny a 7 year old who doesn't want to go to school the chance to HE."

Pisces -"Bubble-not everyone can HE even if they want to. A lot of people work, long hours, full time, just to keep their heads above water finamcially"

"Lucky are the children whose parents can and will sacrifice to allow their children to HE"

Imo Bubble was referring to children who wanted/needed to be HE whose parents were willing and able to make changes to enable them to be HE. Don't you think those children are lucky? She didn't appear to be saying that every child would be better off HE.

So where would you place me, Seeker?
I have children who go to school, so I don't think I'm out of touch with the school system.
But I also have children who are home-ed.

Anastasia - good post.

I think I may have wasted my time providing a non-judgemental answer on this thread. Perhaps if I'd poured scorn on HE then maybe the OP would have noticed.

You could at least acknowledge those who have taken the bloody time to answer!

Thank you for answering, Rhubarb, and my apologes to the 133 other posters whom I cannot acknowledge individually.... Way back on page 1, in my 2nd post, I went through my thoughts about a school trial. A day visit would be totally unrepesentative, and a longer period v. difficult to set up. Please read my previous post if u want more detail. There I also thanked all those who had answered...

...unrepresentative...

Sorry psycho, it's just that in the middle of this scrap I thought I'd answer your op as I felt sorry you were getting so much stick, then I felt ignored whilst you were busy exchanging insults with others.

fwiw, I think you need to listen to your dd. You are lucky that you have the choice of Home Ed or not (although I realise you may not see it that way) and I understand that you've decided to home ed in the best interests of your dd, but we cannot live their lives for them. I do strongly believe that some children are very suited to home ed and others need the social atmosphere that a school provides. Your dd is listening to her cousins with envy and wants to experience it for herself, how will she feel if you continue to deny her that?

Being a parent is hard, but sometimes you have to swallow your pride.

Could you talk to your dd about putting the decision off, psychomumma? Perhaps you could suggest the start of senior school as a better time for this, because she wouldn't be having to integrate into an already bonded group of children - they'd all be starting fresh at senior school. It would probably also be easier to get her into a school that you were happy with.

I don't know whether you are considering home educating her through to 18, but even if you are, what I'm suggesting would put the issue into the future, and she might well feel totally different by the time she's 11. If this is a passing phase, it will pass. If it's not, at least you'll know that.

psychomumma - you posted the following "I don't believe that home-educators are unwilling to debate the pros and cons of HE at all. However, I think it is fair to say that we would prefer to debate with people who have actually lived it. Surely someone who has HE'd has a far better idea of both the up/down-sides than someone who has never done it, who has just read around the subject? And almost all HE'ers have also been to school, so have experience on both sides of the fence."

I really don't see that I have willfully missed the point if I interpret this as meaning that you would prefer not to engage in ebate with people who send their children to school.

And I REALLY don't think I am betraying a insecurity or over sensitivity when I take exception to remarks on this thread and others about how lucky children are whose parents are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices to HE or that school is merely child care.

Seeker, I'll say it again: I'm happy to debate the relative merits of school and HE till the cows come home. This thread was supposed to be about experiences of a specific situation.

I'll let piscesmoon make the next point: 'First of all not all parents can afford it in time or money-both parents work long hours outside the home.
Secondly not all parents want to do it-it sends some around the bend just being at home in the first few years-they don't want 18yrs at home-they would hate it.
A lot of parents are not interested in child development and education (in the broadest possible sense)and they want career fulfillment for themselves...

I would have done it if they had been totally miserable and I had tried all other options. I'm afraid that I couldn't have done it as an option if they were OK at school but just said that would prefer to be at home. I would find it boring and I couldn't operate without time on my own in an empty house with absolute silence - selfish but honest.'

What bothers you about the suggestion that the children of those parents - who are able (i.e. can afford to live on 1 income) and willing to do the juggling and make the sacrifices to HE - are lucky? What is wrong with that statement?

As to the suggestion that school is basically glorified childcare - schools, despite having total control over children for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 40 weeks a year, are still failing shocking numbers of children in areas as basic as literacy (particularly boys) and numeracy. They're failing when they're judged on their own standards - which aren't very high in the first place. To an alien observer, they might appear to function better as a form of daycare than as places of learning.

That is not to say that parents have this view of school; if the school says that its function is to educate, then parents have a right to their children receiving an education, and I find shocking the extent to which they fail to deliver. Not all schools, of course, but generally I don't find their standards (either academic or pastoral) exactly awe-inspiring.

Good idea, stayingsunnygirl, I may run with that.

"What bothers you about the suggestion that the children of those parents - who are able (i.e. can afford to live on 1 income) and willing to do the juggling and make the sacrifices to HE - are lucky? What is wrong with that statement? "

Nothing is wrong with that statement - apart from the assumption that ALL children are unquestionably better off being home edded than being at school(an assumption that I question) - because it acknowledges the undeniable fact that it would just not be possible for a lot of parents to do this. It's not a matter of merely making sacrifices - it would just be an impossibility.

But I do still find it fascinating that it's fine for you (who do not have children at school) to dismiss all school based education as glorified child care, but if anyone ever raises the slightest criticism of HE they are lambasted as ignorant and having no right to an opinion on the subject.

I don't think that OP is aware that seeker is making her points from the very best vantage point, in that she was HEed as a DC and therefore has much more knowledge than many HE parents, who had a school education themselves.
I hope that I haven't made a complete cock up here and got entirely the wrong person! But as I remember it, seeker has never said anything bad about her time in HE and she has a lot of good points about it. If she left it there and HEed her own DCs I expect she would be looked up to by all HEers! However, she tells it how it is and she points out the downsides (there are downsides-nothing is EVER perfect) and she sends her DCs to school, and is very positive about school, and therefore she is dismissed.

'are still failing shocking numbers of children in areas as basic as literacy (particularly boys) and numeracy. They're failing when they're judged on their own standards - which aren't very high in the first place. To an alien observer, they might appear to function better as a form of daycare than as places of learning. '

Of course some schools do-but some parents who HE are abysmal at it too and they fail their DC. Schools have the whole range from brilliant to dire, and so do HEers. Wanting to do it doesn't mean that you are actually any good at it.Lots of people want to teach but find they are not suited and are weeded out. I am absolutely thrilled with what the primary school and secondary school did with my dyslexic DS- and he got a C in English-I am enormously proud of him. I don't think that I would have got the same result for him, I was too closely involved. I don't see how he could have got higher if I had paid for his education-he simply isn't capable of it. (He is very bright in other areas).

Although I know quite a lot of HEers, I don't know any who didn't allow their DC to be part of the decision process. My brother took his DCs out of school when the middle one was 6 yrs, they wouldn't have done so if he hadn't agreed. His older brother aged 8yrs was doing well and they had no thoughts of removing him, but he decided that he would prefer home. The younger one was happy to join in and never went. The older 2 went back to school when they chose (with discussion), the younger one has never chosen and I don't think he will.
I am very thankful that my parents always consulted me, even though my choices were fairly limited, and they never ever used the words 'we love you and we know what is best for you'. I envy anyone who can think like that, but I'm not at all sure that I automatically know what is best for my DSs, I think that I do but I can't be certain. I would be very worried about getting it 'wrong' and being held accountable later.

I home-ed. I don't look down on Seeker because she sends her children to school. Why would I? Some of mine go to school.
I don't think I've been dismissive of what she has to say as I find what she has to say about HE quite interesting.

.

Juuule - you are always reasonable, witty, interesting and informative on the subject - and you are never judgmental (sorry, I meant to say that when you posted earlier!).

However, whenever I try to talk about my own experiences, I find that I am dismissed, or ignored, or, on one memorable occasion, told that the downsides of HE I had experienced in adult life and which I was trying to outline were the result of my inherent character flaws!

Having read through this thread I want to express my sympathy for the very patient OP who has repeatedly explained who she wants to have helping her with her issue.

I don't know why some of you are posting very LONG pieces repeating yourselves, when it's clearly not welcomed by the OP.

It comes across as though you're just standing on your soapboxes and not listening to her. Like you're posting for your own gratification instead of genuinely trying to contribute something worthwhile for her to consider.

Yes, it's a public space, but you're like a dog with a bone who can't let it drop. It comes across as quite rude, which I guess you probably don't intend.

What you say is for a different thread - please!!

whackety, the op asked a question, she got some answers. some of those answers provoked a debate which, this being a public forum, then evolved into a wider discussion only tangentially related to the OP's post.

this happens all the time on MN. the OP may have started the thread, but she doesn't own it, and there is value in the discussion regardless of whether it is directly addressed to her or not, whether she welcomes it or not.

i honestly don't think anyone has been rude- disagreeing does not equal being rude.

Why thank you, seeker

I think I remember something of what you describe on here somewhere. I can understand why you would find it unsettling (at least). That's probably for another thread, too, though.

Whackety - I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

Psychomumma, we home ed our three DCs and my DD, who is 7, recently said that she wanted to go to school. She went to nursery for 5 terms but never to school. DS1 did nursery then 2 years flexi-schooling; DS2 did nursery then home ed as the flexi-schooling wasn't going to well with DS1 and the school weren't keen to continue it anyway (plus it was an awful school!)

About 3 weeks before half term she announced she wanted to go to school and she had been thinking about it for 'quite a while'. This turned out to be 2 days! We talked about why she wanted to go, I pointed out the disadvantages - she wouldn't be able to go to home ed activities; she would have to go to after school club on our French/Spanish group day as that doesn't finish till later etc. I also clarified some misconceptions about school (she wouldn't be able to wear gingham dresses all year round, her friend's school is oversubscribed so she couldn't go there, that it would be better to start at the beginning of a term so after Christmas would be the next time to start; gave her an overview of a school day etc and she was a little less sure. So I ended the conversation by giving her some time to think about it - till half term - and said that if she still wanted to go, to come and tell me and we would talk about it some more and have a look at some schools.

She never came back to me, has never mentioned it either so I am assuming it was a very brief passing phase.

I have to say that the reason you mention your DD gave of "just because" wouldn't persuade me to send her. I think she needs to clarify to you and to herself what she wants from school so you can see if it's realistic. At the same time, she seems very convinced that she wants to go.

I think by taking her views seriously and discussing them, giving her the option of looking at some schools if she is determined to go, may help her but clarification of reasons on her side, IMO is important.