Once again thinking of HE... please talk to me! (Long sorry!)

[fuzzpig]

Today I completely failed to get my DCs to school. Both have the odd day when they just refuse. DS (5, yr1) in particular - he gets very clingy and upset. DD (7, yr3) is having a bullying issue and that's what got her upset today, although she would've gone in if DS had, I think.

I've lurked/posted here under various names since I joined MN around 2010, and both DH and I are very pro-HE. We've read a bit about it and made plans about how we'd approach it, I even had plans for projects etc! We decided to give nursery/school a go though, and DD flourished immediately (she's very social... unlike us!) so we put HE plans on hold with the agreement that we would absolutely HE if we felt it best. This turned out to be a blessing as DH got an injury and lost his job, I had to go to work but then I got very ill - I'm now disabled with a variable, unpredictable condition. There's no way we would've managed if they weren't at school.

Things went pretty well until this September when DD moved to juniors (separate school, not primary) - it's huge (150 pupils per year) and she was overwhelmed. She has friends (barring this 'frenemy') but just found it too much really, she became even more anxious - she's always been sensitive - and wasn't sleeping. She has a referral for this as it does affect many aspects of her life. Anyway sometimes she would have to be peeled off me at the classroom door, which had honestly never happened before. BUT academically it has been surprisingly good for her - she's blossomed under the clearer structure and adores homework and spelling tests, finally enjoying and making progress in maths etc.

DS, who loved reception, is sometimes completely refusing to even get dressed now. Due to my health I simply cannot force him or 'drag' him to school (and we have no car to bundle him into). I tried once and really suffered for it. When I ask, he says it (the school day) 'takes too long', and he misses me. He also hates assembly and says it hurts his ears (he does cover his ears at loud noises, and has had congestion/hearing loss in the past so this is feasible, but school don't seem convinced). He is youngest in the year too, and has a significant speech disorder although that is gradually improving.

Anyway, both schools are very supportive and understanding and we've always been very open about or struggles. I have arranged a meeting with the infants SENCO tomorrow and am awaiting a call from the welfare officer at the juniors, both because they want to see how else they can help. I'm in a bad phase healthwise - not been to work for a few weeks - and I'm scared of their attendance dropping - I doubt the EWO would be so sympathetic as the schools themselves!

So back to today - I just wasn't up to the battle of getting them there. They both visibly relaxed when I agreed, and were very happy to do "school at home". We've had a great day - a bit of maths, reading, spelling etc, and DD even spent well over an hour enthusiastically making a poster to show her class, after reading more about a topic they'd briefly touched on at school. She said "I've set myself some homework!" and was so happy doing it! The only thing they've grumbled about is lack of telly (which we don't have during the school week anyway).

I'm just confused really and I have no idea what to do. Most of the time they are fine but when they have a bad day it's not just bad but impossible! But I was wary of making this too fun (hence not putting DVDs on - which I would, if we were actually HEing) in case the school refusal (if I can even call it that, when it's not constant) gets worse because they want to stay home more. And I'm worried that the fact I have idly dreamed of HE for years will cloud my judgement if it's not actually the best thing to do in this instance, IYSWIM. If they were refusing every day then it would be a much easier choice! DH (who due to his past is much angrier about this other girl upsetting DD) is very gung-ho and "we will make it work" but although I am yearning to just take them out, my head is more powerful than my heart.

I'm reasonably confident they could learn a lot at home (not that I'm saying it'd all be easy like today!), but there's the practical worries - money?! DH's job is low income at the moment, and without my extra pittance from part time work we would struggle (although things might get easier as our rent will decrease if we get housed - currently on register... which incidentally would mean we'd have to change schools anyway, because there's virtually no council housing in this relatively affluent part of town). Because of money and physical constraints I'm worried their world would just become TOO small, if that makes sense? Even continuing things like Brownies would be a strain on our wallets. And selfishly I worry what effect it would have on me - I need, need, NEED downtime both mentally (I have AS) and physically, and would lose confidence without my job I think. There's no family who could help really and with both of us being very shy, we don't have a support network per se and would really struggle to make one. Today I've got by because we are literally 'playing school', so they've had playtimes when teacher can have a rest - can't see that working long term. Getting enough exercise is a concern too, I worry enough as it is because I currently can't manage to visit the park after school etc and we don't have a garden to run around it (again this will hopefully change with council housing).

Oh gosh this is ridiculously long, apologies. I have just had all these thoughts going round and round for weeks/months now and I'm hoping for some wise words from you lovely people! :)

That's funny, I was chatting to DS about wind turbines the other day (ironically because they have one at DD's school, but still :o)

I do see your point though - I just don't want her to think I'm criticising schools. That said, she's always been there for me and I think she would support our decision - and quite possibly enjoy advising on resources and stuff like that :)

Lego I'm really glad you've got your happy boy back! :) I really think it would be the same for us. I think we would have some structure too - both DCs seem to really thrive on it especially with numeracy and literacy. Much more child led for the rest of it though I think.

I've messaged a couple of people who HE locally to see if there's much of a scene around here, and asked on a local info group about childminders.

I really think this is going to happen. It's not going to happen straight away though (sorry this will be one of those annoying threads where a resolution doesn't actually happen quickly :o) as the childcare/financial issues will take some serious work to sort out.

And if the DCs start really enjoying school again then we will keep it on the back burner. But either way we are seriously planning for this now. < excited squeak> :)

A couple more questions if I may

Those who have experienced one in school and one HE - how does it work? I'm a bit worried that it would be the worst of both worlds, rather than the best, IYSWIM. Still confined to school hours/terms so couldn't go far during the week, still have after school stress (probably sleep issues too for DD) etc...

And, if you HE two or more DCs, how do you make sure they are both learning at the right level? I think DS could easily keep up with DD in some things but then in other areas he really struggles with especially due to his speech.

Sorry just rambling really but it's lovely to chat here :)

I've just taken the huge step of HE my DD who is 9. My other two children still attend school (primary and secondary). Just completed first week and it has been topsy turvy to say the least. I'm struggling just knowing how to organise my day so that I provide HE for DD, fit in with school hours and manage the needs of everyone who usually think that mum has all the answers! I'm keen to join local HE groups and it's good to read other people's experiences on here. My DD has SN as well, so I'm trying to make sure that all of those are being met as well. But I can't do any worse than the school!

Hi Olly :) wow only one week in I'm not surprised you are struggling! Don't put too much pressure on yourself (must take own advice here ) - probably need to 'deschool' as I've read about on here. I can see why that's hard with other DCs in school though, it worries me too - as I mentioned earlier, I'm fairly sure DD would want to stay in school at first. But then, even last night (ie not a school night which is when most of the bedtime problems are) she was absolutely distraught because of the thought of going to school :( "Mummy am I going to be bullied forever? Even when I go to a new school?" :(

On a more practical note - in the last we've used the childcare voucher scheme, and I'm wondering would we still be able to do this for childcare used during school hours? Or would it not be eligible because technically we don't have to use paid childcare as we could send them to school for free... IYSWIM?

Both my DC are HE but we do still kind of need to keep to school hours, as I work for an after school club 5 days a week, so everything has to stop/be finished by 2.30-3pm. If we want to do a longer day trip out somewhere I can take a days leave though. For terms its kind of the same too as I tend to do much longer hours in the holidays, so we have less time for HE, but if we actually want to go on a holiday, I will take it in term time as that is when its easier for me to get time off (its also cheaper/less busy etc. too). it works for us but most of the HE groups/activities around here tend to only be on in term-time, during school hours anyway.

I have 2dc at school and 2dc ehe

I find our ehe routine fits very nicely around schools runs for my younger two (who will be joining us eventually).

We tend to do structured mornings, from the school run onwards and autonomous time from lunch until school collection. The groups we attend fit within school hours and allow me travelling time to, so we manage OK.

I used to ehe all four, who in total have a six year age gap. It worked surprisingly well! At that time, it was more easy for me to do part structured and part self governed, flexibly throughout the day. This meant I could ensure I was guiding some while others got stuck into other projects and switch as required throughout the day.

Unless you're dead set on having a fully structured and adhered to time table, flexibility is key. I tend to make notes of what I'd like to cover in a week or month and usually find that those things slot themselves appropriately into our time.

Brain storming on the school run often sets my ehe dc up nicely for the day and piques their interest in whatever subject I raise (one from my list, for eg.).

Meant to add, even though we have to roughly keep to school hours, they are not restricted to only learning then e.g we still do stuff at weekends and if they want to do maths worksheets before breakfast or at 8pm then that's fine

For levels etc. we have just kind of found a way that works for us. I don't really look at NC levels or anything like that or try to assess their progress in any formal way. I don't really subscribe to the idea that all should/have to be doing the same things by the same age either. So even though my 2 are close in age (7&8) they are both in different places learning wise.

They both have their own workbooks for Maths/English appropriate to their own abilities and interests. Even though these are the only subjects I 'make' them do, I still allow them to have a choose over the content so that they can begin to self-identify areas they want/need to improve in while also following their own interests. They both learn musical instruments too where they are both roughly the same level (attend the same music class) and also in French as they have both recently begun going to a HE class for this.

Everything else the DC just learn as and when they become interested in it. Sometimes they both do that at the same time, but more often it seems to be different as they are quite different personality wise. What I usually do is find stuff that is relevant to that topic (books, activities etc.) and put it in their own folder, then they can do it as and when they like. If they both want to be doing different things that need my help at the same time, then we have to come to a compromise of some sort, but it helps them to learn patience and turn taking, as there's only one of me!!!!!

Thanks, it's great to hear everyone's different ways of working! I do have a rough idea of how I want to approach it but I guess it will evolve naturally.

It seems there is quite a bit going on in our town! I've requested to join a Facebook group and one friend has invited me along to chat when parents wait outside an HE activity at the leisure centre. So that'll be a good way to find out more. :)

This is all getting very real

Have updated my childcare website profile, and emailed our requirements to the local family information service, so fingers crossed we will get somewhere with that!

"On a more practical note - in the last we've used the childcare voucher scheme, and I'm wondering would we still be able to do this for childcare used during school hours? Or would it not be eligible because technically we don't have to use paid childcare as we could send them to school for free... IYSWIM?"

It makes no difference whatsoever what times you use the childcare. In fact, you don't even have to be using the childcare while you are at work. For example, if you were a novelist who could manage to do some work while the kids were at home, you could use the childcare scheme while you went shopping!

Technically speaking, school is not childcare. In practice, many families do use it partly for this purpose, but the official line is that school exists purely to provide an education. So no one can insist that you use school as childcare. If you were on JSA and were offered a job, you would be expected to explore all suitable childcare options (not including school, because "school isn't childcare"). If you showed willing but there really isn't find any suitable childcare - all local childminders are full etc - you would not be made to take up the job.

Anyway on a financial level, it would cost the government more to provide a school place for a child than to subsidise the cost of a childminder, so why would they want you to send your kids to school?! This seems surprising in view of the poor adult:child ratio in schools, but state school is not cheap childcare from the taxpayer's point of view, only from the POV of the end user. It costs about £6k a year to provide a school place. Children are in school for about 1000 hours a year. That's £6 an hour we taxpayers spend on sending a child to school. Few children's parents "need" all of that time in order to enable them to work, as their working hours don't match inflexible school hours exactly. So we are paying even more over the odds, since we are paying for hours which aren't needed.

Thanks Saracen, I understand now! Great that we'd be able to use them!

I had a busy morning exploring different ways of finding childcare, but the amazing bit happened just now - messaged a childminder who I've actually spoken to a while ago (but only briefly as she didn't have the spaces we needed at the time)... Explained that it was an odd situation as DCs are school age and I need to HE... turns out she is home educating her own DCs! :o :o How's that for coincidence?

Anyway I'm not sure exactly what spaces she has yet, so childcare issues not necessarily sorted, but I'm meeting her later this week as she invited me round for a chat so she can tell me more about local groups etc :) YAY!

Fantastic!

Fuzz! That's great!!

Unfortunately DD was sick yesterday so I've had to cancel the meeting. But I've had a few more messages from CMs with vacancies so will spend some time chasing them up.

I am still pretty sure DD will not want to leave school. So looks like for the moment at least it'll just be DS.

Apart from loads of paper (DCs go through reams of it as it is!) is there anything I actually need? I'm wary of just going mad buying stuff :o

Sounds very positive, Fuzz.

All experienced home educators will tell you not to go mad buying stuff and you will ignore them and go mad buying stuff . Unless you are very, very strong minded. I still have to rein myself in from subscribing to too many things, buying too many books, etc.

What you need depends on how you decide to home ed and you may not know that yet. Personally, I insist on Maths and English regularly and we do topics on other subjects. I have used Galore Park textbooks and Schofield & Sims. I really love the Galore Park Junior English books and the Scofield & Sims junior Maths books are good too. I also subscribe to ConquerMaths for DS2 - he does a couple of their lessons daily, then does some work in his S&S textbook.

Twinkl is great too: lots of great primary resources on there.

Remember that there are usually home ed discounts available for everything - always check first. Worth subscribing to some home ed Facebook groups to keep up with offers.

Argh lost my post earlier! Curse this battery.

Anyway, thanks toffee that all sounds great.

In terms of plans I think we will start off as you describe - maths and English probably daily, they enjoy the stuff we do at home anyway and I think DS in particular will benefit (his speech really seems to hold him back in even small groups). With other subjects we will probably play it by ear, although I might ease them into it with ancient Egypt as they are both fascinated by it ATM.

I've been on the frugal threads for a few months now and it's really changed my mindset for buying things, so hopefully I'll mostly resist the lure of Stuff :o :o we have an insane amount of children's non-fiction books anyway from my less frugal days so that will help.

Also my job is in the large town library so I'm really lucky - free requests, free DVD loans and various other staff perks. This will really come in handy I think!

TBH what we really need to do is tidy up more

Even more conflicted again after the meeting with infant school today. I am so very bad at confrontation and not being compliant and feel like I need to do what they say because they've started all these referrals etc - things I have been happy to do, because we are struggling with some things due to my health etc. But then maybe some of those things wouldn't even be a problem if we were HEing?!

I was very happy with some things they will do to try and see what he's worried about.

But I just felt like they don't really believe that he's unhappy ever. They were very surprised when I mentioned the teasing and although they said they'll approach it as a whole class, the response was a bit "well children can be cruel" IYSWIM. And they think the only reason he doesn't want to go is because he's worried about me (I don't dispute that's one reason, but of many IMO).

But then maybe I'm the one who's got this all wrong?!

I know what you mean. They see a different side of your boy in school and they see lots of children too so have a whole different perspective to you. But you know your boy much better than them. And so you do have to trust yourself a bit on this. Neither you nor the school will be 100% right or wrong in this situation. It just isn't like that.

Also HE is a big decision and you will wonder if you've done the right thing ( you would if you left them in school too but HE is going against the grain a bit and you may feel you have more responsibility if you do - tho that can be a good thing too). There are things I regret about when I HEd my ds but I don't regret the actual decision.

Errrrm weird question, are childminders actually allowed to childmind school age children? As somebody (a CM with vacancies) has just told me it's not allowed unless it's before or after school...

The CM is mistaken. Or perhaps she doesn't want to do it because she is worried she will be held responsible for your son's education if she minds him during "school hours"? You could reassure her that you are allowed to educate him during any hours you choose (you don't have to stick to local state school hours) and that you are only looking for childcare for him, not education.

I second Saracen. The childminder is wrong. In fact, my younger son's former childminder used to mind two children who were home educated. Perhaps the CM is confusing this issue with the rules about ratios of children: it's possible to mind three preschool children under five, but still be eligible to have another three under eight and, usually, the under eights would need to be picked up from school. This might have led her to the erroneous conclusion that she's not allowed to mind school-age children.

That's good, thanks. No loss there then I guess

On the profile on childcare.co.uk I did put that I'm not expecting any school type stuff to be done during their childcare hours.

Well I took the plunge today and mentioned HE to DD. In the context of homeschooling DS. She was a bit confused but I explained a little about how it works and all the things we might do and learn. She then said "what about me?" and I said it was up to her. She said she wasn't sure as "I like school but I like staying home too" so I reassured her it is her choice and she doesn't have to decide straight away. I do honestly feel overall she would be better off in HE (both academically and socially) but I'm going to leave it there until we've got a potential childminder in place (as I'd need to know if we needed one space or two!) as I really don't want to pressure her.

My mum has been so lovely about this, really reassuring me and talking about what resources she can help us find, places she'd like to take us to etc :)

It's really really really common for the still-in-school child to ask to come out within six months of the pioneer HE one. Just sayin' ;)