DD decided against applying for Oxbridge

[SinuousTendrils]

My DD has finally decided not to apply for Oxbridge. Of course i realise she had a slim chance of getting in but I'd really hoped she'd throw her hat in the ring. With the current graduate jobs market as it is, I thought she might be in with a chance of a golden ticket if she got in.
Is it really that dire out there? Would a talented high achiever really struggle to find a career after uni? I've been advising her to consider her STEM subjects rather than literature, which i think she'd enjoy more...thinking at Oxbridge humanities degrees still have currency...it's so hard, isn't it?!

As an aside for anyone with a child aged 15 to 17 feeling unsure about what to do at university or keen to get some relevant experience for UCAS application can I recommend looking at the Nottingham Trent Summer Programme for mainly creative subjects architecture, product design, fashion, writing, but also things linked to creativity like Creative Entrepreneurship and PR.
They are a week long residential and my kids both did one for a university experience and loved it. It's not cheap by the time you've paid accomodation but it is very good.
NTU summer programme

Two children - 30 and 28. The 30 year old went to cambridge and did literature and has frankly struggled with jobs through his twenties. The 28 year old tried and failed with Oxford and was so relieved! She went to Durham. She and her friends are doing SO well, in so many fields. I'm forever impressed by their post-Durham professional achievements.
Oxbridge feels like the be-all and end-all. It really isn't!

Thank you this could be really interesting for one of my kids!

My DH is an Oxford graduate.
He firmly advised our DD not to apply. He had a shocking first 18 months.
DD attended an ex polytechnic, has a bachelors and masters in mathematics and the world is her oyster. To add, DH recruits people for teaching positions. He has no idea where they attended University.

English lit and German v fashion marketing at a RG university. Loves fashion and is stylish but is so so good at English lit and loves it. Fashion marketing degree ABB requirement so a respected course the students we spoke to v smart and had placements and direct industry links. She fears eng lit would put her behind those students and won’t lead to a job.

Awful hotbed of poor mental health creating over achievers that is unsustainable…who if vulnerable are affected later.

She’s obviously very bright and somewhat decisive!

In my experience if you are going to succeed at Oxbridge you need absolute passion - I don’t think you could cope with the “total immersion” experience unless you absolutely loved your studies. It is very much a “work hard, play hard” place. If she did have a lingering fancy for Oxford her best bet might be PPE - it’s a good refuge for clever all-rounders. But if she’s decided she wants something else then let her instinct guide her.

I would suggest with her academic aptitude she should be looking at a joint honours degree with a “sandwich” year in industry/business to increase her employability and sustain her sense of purpose and help her define career destinations.

My dh did a 3 year Sports Science and Physics, followed by an MSc in business studies and now earning nice 6 figures in finance job. He had a blast at uni, literally loved every minute of it. Whereas I did my Oxbridge degree following a true passion, -and ended up in a similar career to my dh because I couldn’t make ends meet doing what I love. Neither of us like our jobs but we love the lifestyle it has afforded us. And we look forward greatly to early retirement!

Many roads lead to Rome.

Good for her! It's her future let her go to a school she likes rather than the one you want so you can brag to your mates a lot more workplaces now don't give a toss where you went

You mean your invested but only for the school you want

She needs to think more about where she wants to be and less about the subjects.

I was like your daughter. Also didn't go for Oxbridge as after doing a three day open event (probably put on for us poor folk) I knew I'd be a fish out of water.

Although I was very academic, I also didn't love anything and had a mix of subjects, no clear route and no idea what I wanted to do.

Questions I wish someone had asked me to narrow it down:

• do you see yourself living in a city or are you rural at heart? (I'm the latter but picked profession originally very city orientated)

• do you see yourself in an office environment or are you more practical and would prefer a lab, healthcare, education or outdoor setting?

• do you know how many degree options are available. This sounds stupid but as someone from a working class background, I chose based fairly strictly on my a level subjects. I didn't realise I could have done archaeology for example. I assumed people had already done these things at school and I wouldn't be able to start them at uni.

• are you a people person and do you like to be in charge (i.e a management role). Confidence is a big factor here. Is she popular, a leader at school or an introverted self starter? I don't like managing people but in many careers it's part of the process to progress.

I struggled coming out of uni with a very good degree but a subject rather than a vocation. I wished I'd done something with a more defined route.

You also say she's good across the subjects. I had a friend at this stage who realised she wanted to do speech therapy but hadn't taken best combination of a levels. She stayed on an extra year to do another and worked around it to fund uni. At the time it felt like she was left behind but it was an incredibly brave and wise decision.

I think reassure her that if she does realise she'd like to go in a different route altogether, she's not tied to her three a level subjects.

I think to do well at Oxbridge you need to enjoy a subject for its own sake and want to engage with it beyond the requirements of the a level syllabus. This is how I would view the oft quoted 'passion'. You also have to be open to the teaching style, culture and workload of the universities that is undoubtedly somewhat different from many other very selective institions. You can be a very high attaining students and these dont apply.

I think the OPs daughter just needs to reflect on what course she wants and what her aspirations are. Is choosing a course that gives the best chance of a high paying career most important to her? Or does she havev a traditional or vocational subject she is keen to immerse herself in for 3 or 4 years? For most people this will be the only chance in their lifetime to do this. Motivations (financial and wider), aptitude and interest all count when making decisions.
I'd start from the broad course area and then think about what would be the best uni to study it at.

@ChapmanFarm I dont think either of us are necessarily wrong, but the contradicting cross posts are quite amusing 🙂

Oxbridge is not a golden ticket. DH and I both went for undergrad and both ended up doing pointless masters 💸 because we couldn’t find our next step after graduating. We are now a teacher and senior civil servant and work alongside people with a range of academic backgrounds.

I would say she should decide what she wants to do post-university and then choose the degree based on that. Seems like obvious advice but there’s a lot of “do what interests you” and unless she wants to go into academia, there is rarely an obvious career path from many undergrad subjects.

Watch the Malcolm Gladwell talk 'Why You Shouldn't Go To Harvard' [and then substitute Oxbridge for Harvard]. The argument is that relative class position is far more important than institution, so you're better off going to a lower ranked university and doing very well than going to a higher ranked university and doing just fine.

My niece went to Oxford, got a first there, but regrets it because she just didn't like their teaching methods. They wanted her to come back for a postgrad but she went to another university and loved it.

For what it's worth, other relatives who went to non-Oxbridge universities have done very well subsequently in terms of their careers.

Absolutely not a “Golden Ticket”. I know 2 humanities Oxford graduates (1 year and 2 years out) who work part time retail jobs and a Maths Cambridge graduate who did manage to get some sort of data job but 2 years on and he’s only just broken £30k, AND he was unemployed for months and got a job at a company his dad does work for. All 3 are lovely bright kids who I imagine interview fairly well. My dcs friend who has had the most success did an HMRC apprenticeship after A-levels and now works for an investment firm. The grad market is dire and there is no such thing as a magic subject or magic institution that will fix it but anything a bit vocational from a massive university with a good careers service will help.
Don’t “invest” £60k when she can’t even narrow down to STEM vs humanities. Time is needed.

I would recommend strongly a gap year, if your DD remains unsure of her studies.

I echo the observation that there is an intense workload at Oxford, so students need to have drive – whether from passion for their subject, or because they love or are good at hard work. If your DD is unsure about what she wants to study, it might be that the energy at Oxford will help light the fire. On the other hand, the workload can generate the opposite reaction in the ambivalent.

I'm personally a believer in going to university for the sake of learning and for life experience. However, given the cost involved, this is not the same sort of option as it was decades ago. The gap year is a good way for kids to think about what they want to do, and to enter uni with a touch more maturity.

To the extent STEM is on the table, your DD needs to think carefully about the career options out of her qualification. For instance, certain pathways in science will require further study (and possibly a doctorate).

I used to think that and it’s all very lovely but now they are self funding and salaries so low and loan interest so high I’m not so sure.

If we give up on wider education, education to understand the world and enrich our own lives and the lives of others, we are basically accepting that education is a 16 year training course for work. I dont accept that.
Employability is an important consideration, but it isnt the only one. Young people should be informed about employability prospects, costs and loan repayments. However, ultimately they need to make their own decisions about whether uni is the right choice for them and if so what to study and where.

OP, there is nothing more disappointing than applying to Oxford, getting an interview, and then not getting a place. If your DD has decided that she’d rather go elsewhere, then be pleased with her decision. One of my DD’s went to Sheffield - she absolutely loved it (and is now doing very well in her career).

There is no golden ticket. I loved my time at Cambridge for a host of reasons not connected with employability but getting a job is more about networks. Sure you MAY get to improve your network at Cambridge but it is not a given. the statistics say that it is parental social class (who they know and the soft skills they pass) that best predicts the child’s employment outcomes. There may also be something to be said for being a big fish in a smaller pond. I’ve known a couple of people be overwhelmed at large Russel Group universities, drop out and go to smaller lower tier institutions and really thrive as they are more ‘seen’ and the departments/lecturers have been able to pass on opportunities.

Oxbridge could be fun and also cost effective as the accommodation is a known, library resources are great and many colleges have deep pockets to assist but there are so many other excellent places to study.

Same. So glad I didn’t.

To be honest it's even harder for STEM students, every top uni has so many identikit applicants with 4 A* at ALevel and A in EPQ who wants to study medicine/ engineering/ biochemistry and even the top of the top get turned away. At least in the humanities there can be slightly less sought after courses, in which case you might have a fighting chance.

you're wrong to think that STEM subjects will stand her in better stead for a job, unless she wants to work in scientific fields of course. The current job market is tough for everyone, regardless of their degree subject so she should just study what she enjoys and is passionate about.

The application process to Oxbridge is very hard work and brutal, it can be soul destroying. I would respect your YPs wishes if she doesn't have the will for it. I say this as someone who is in a similar position to you with my own kid.

I went to Oxbridge and my golden ticket must have got lost in the post.

My DD looked at Oxbridge, decided against applying for very good reasons and went to another university and did (IMO) better than she would have done at Oxbridge.

I think you need to be very passionate about your subject to go to Oxbridge; not someone who doesn't really have a burning passion for anything.

I'd say split the difference and do a Marketing degree, or a Communications & Marketing degree, which will be much more employable than either of the other options.

If interested in fashion, then relevant fashion marketing experience can help her stand out when applying for those roles, but they will be competitive.

I'd advise her that her first job will choose her, not the other way round, so she needs to make herself attractive to a wide range of employers, not a small range of employers.