DD decided against applying for Oxbridge

[SinuousTendrils]

My DD has finally decided not to apply for Oxbridge. Of course i realise she had a slim chance of getting in but I'd really hoped she'd throw her hat in the ring. With the current graduate jobs market as it is, I thought she might be in with a chance of a golden ticket if she got in.
Is it really that dire out there? Would a talented high achiever really struggle to find a career after uni? I've been advising her to consider her STEM subjects rather than literature, which i think she'd enjoy more...thinking at Oxbridge humanities degrees still have currency...it's so hard, isn't it?!

Another Oxbridge graduate here. Putting aside the specific pros and cons of going, I will say this: THERE IS NO GOLDEN TICKET. Lots of my Oxbridge fellow humanities graduates couldn't get a graduate job straight from uni and many of them are pretty low-earners now, almost 20 years later (sometimes that is personal choice, eg people who were passionate about going into education or certain types of NHS / charity sector - heritage role, but going to Oxbridge doesn't necessarily help much with those things). And we graduated when the job market was much better.

A degree which is heavy on certain types of technical skill / vocational focus might lead directly to great employment opportunities. Generally though I'd say it is all about soft skills and work experience. Being personable; selling yourself; experiencing different workplace settings; attending webinars, graduate open days or networking events; building self-confidence; being good at analysing systems, identifying problems and having the initiative to solve them creatively... and even then, there's no sure thing.

Thanks @Izzasaurus great advice. I have copied your last para into my notes for dd.

Congratulations to your daughter on her success so far! I'm an Oxford academic (a fellow at one of the colleges, and a University Lecturer), and I wanted to reassure you that, while Oxbridge is great, so are other universities. Your daughter should have a good look at degree courses that interest her, talk to other students currently studying for those degrees, and then choose the degree course that suits her best. I understand parental anxiety about finding a course that will guarantee a job, but unfortunately, as others have said, there is no "golden ticket" any longer. Indeed, many large employers now have the same "widening participation" objectives that all universities have: my stepdaughter, who graduated from Oxford with a 1st in English Lit., a few years ago (and had a great time while here), nonetheless struggled to find work in London because she was seen as coming from a privileged background, having been to Oxford! (She ended up finding a great job, but not in the field she'd hoped for arts and a long way from London...) Don't feel that STEM necessarily guarantees your child a job, either: AI is massively reshaping that job market too. Indeed, if you want to guarantee her a job, taking an NVQ in a trade might be the best option!

One final point: I certainly don't think your daughter (or you) should feel she's somehow missing out if she doesn't apply to Oxbridge, but it's also worth saying that the stereotypes and prejudices people have about Oxford and Cambridge are just that, and are usually based on ideas or experiences decades out of date: again, if your daughter is interested in finding out about those unis, best to speak to current students about their experiences.

Having an Oxbridge degree won't make the difference to her career options. It is not a golden ticket.

She needs to choose the course and the university that best suit her.

Employability isn't just about the degree. The thing that got my my foot in the door was related to software experience I had through my summer job in an office, not my degree. The thing that made me realise my chosen career path existed was through the volunteering I did at university, which also gave me the experiences that proved I could do the jobs I applied for.

My family members and friends who studied at Oxford weren't able to work during term time (my part time job at my Russel Group Uni was brilliant).

I'm still glad I did the degree in the arts subjects I chose because that is what interested me and that's what I wanted to learn more about. University is about learning, it's about analysing and researching, it's purpose isn't solely about employability.

Please don't make her do a STEM subject if that's not what she's interested in. I'm not even clear from your post what she wants to do the most.

What sector does she want to work in? What are her passions and interests? I know so many successful, satisfied professionals who use their creativity and compassion to run huge businesses, organisations, trusts, charities, theatres, touring producing companies, all sorts, and they've got arts degrees or humanities degrees.

Of course, if she wants to do STEM subjects, that's fine but she might end up like my friends who felt pressured into doing that and have ended up retraining and working in completely different sectors but starting from scratch as older adults.

How old is she? I'm guessing these are decisions she's of an age to be making this year? The Oxbridge decision needs making earlier because of the timings of applications and interviews so maybe it's that pressure that's putting her off too. I'd say the subject is more important to nail down than the uni because if she's a high achiever, that should dictate which unis are the strongest in that field.

My son's just finished A levels and he was keen to avoid the debt of uni so he prioritised looking for degree apprenticeships, industry placements, funded fees etc. But he also knew which industry he wanted to work in and that's shaped all of his choices from there.

@MajorProcrastination thanks for your post despite the slightly patronising tone 😊
FWIW i have 3 x humanities degrees and am working in my dream role (albeit for a pretty average salary) I understand that HE has more value than getting a highly paid job!
DD is not being pressured by any means by me to do STEM. If I could, I would make her do English literature and philosophy at Warwick so she could smuggle me into the lectures, as that's the course I would have done if anyone had bothered to help me with university applications. I was clueless and there wasn't much in the way of guidance.
DD is an exceptional student. Her a level maths department (local comp) is sought after, and her cohort contains several students who got 100% in gcse further maths. DD was the only student in her year to get 9 and 9 in English lit and lang and is in the top quarter of that maths group. And yet she says she isn't really passionate about any of it. She just wants to be best placed to earn enough money to have a decent income (an not drive a shit car like me, no doubt!)
So choosing a degree course isn't straight forward for her and she's asked for my help.
My best advice is to apply to Glasgow so she can d joint literature and maths, but it's a looong way from home.
Lots of great advice from others here about a gap year, although it makes sense that the maths contingent might not think that the best idea.
I think she might apply for a PPE type course with sandwich year and some degree apprenticeships; she's volunteering via my field and about to start a bar job so hopefully all of this will help.

Just to add, feeling much better about dd not applying to Oxbridge, thanks to everyone for different perspectives and sage advice. Definitely the right decision for dd, which I should have known all along, as she is-always right ❤️

Oxbridge is definitely not for everybody.

I went to a Maths faculty open day at Cambridge a few weeks ago. The parents talk was given by the Director of Studies. He was candid about giving the unvarnished truth about doing Maths at Cambridge and he said it really isn't suitable for every student. Basically, its intense and hard work. Very hard.

DS really wants to apply to Cambridge and I'm sure he will, but I'm glad he's considering other unis like Warick, Bath, Durham etc. I've worked with a lot of Oxbridge grads in the past and they've all been very clever but it's not the be all and end all, and certainly not a golden ticket in today's world unless you have all the other things like internships, work experience etc.

Warwick just as demanding for maths so i hear. If i'm remembering correctly, entry requirement higher too! I felt like I'd landed on a different planet when we went fir the open day talk.

We went to Warwick open day last year and I was impressed by it. And Bath too.

But Cambridge appears to be on another level of intensity though and I'm not sure if that's a good thing for DS. I have family who've worked in the Cambridge Maths faculty who have backed this up.

A Warwick course that gives great employment prospects is MORSE - Maths, Operational Research, Statistics and Economics - but it has become very competitive to get on to, precisely because it is so employable.

Just a word of caution here. Your DD thinks she knows what she wants to do, but can’t possibly know all the options that will be available to her in due course - either subject or career wise. I experienced a number of students at the HEI I worked in who were reading Medicine and had wanted to do this subject (or their parents had wanted them to do this subject) since they were very young, but were unaware of the many science based options leading on to health related careers which didn’t require a Medical degree, and more importantly in some cases had no interaction with the public (ill or otherwise). Some eventually had to drop out or change course. A significant minority of doctors are guilty of pressurising their children into medicine.

Always good to keep options open and not have to follow a disappointing Plan B.

If she is super bright and enjoys maths, then a maths degree is a good bet for the future. Having those high-level logic and reasoning skills will be excellent currency for finance and big-tech sectors. It's general enough to give her a strong foundation for any career.

Sorry but I love your reply here 😆Over-invested? Er yes, that'll be me. My DD is only 16 and I'm already over-invested in what university she'll go to (hence my reading this thread, ahem). It's called excitement and interest in your children's choices/options (plus a healthy dash of fear induced from the never-ending articles about the sky falling in on the graduate job market).

I don't have much in the way of advice to offer, but have a similarly 'good at lots of things' child who is dithering between Astrophysics and English and it's hard to know which way to go. Your daughter is fortunate (or perhaps not, given her indecision..) that her A levels still keep either direction open. I wouldn't advise too heavy an applied course - I went to Warwick and did Economics and Politics, but on arrival for some mad reason had applied to do Accounting. I lasted about two weeks before realising 18 was far too young to be caring about something so 'job-focused' and wanted more of an academic slant so switched.

Is that what you’re doing? Because that’s not what your post says. Your post says you wanted her to throw her hat into the ring for a golden ticket and how hard it is and then posting it on Mumsnet. My first post was flippant and I’m not trying to be mean but this level of involvement and concern at this age isn’t massively healthy. I hope she finds a good uni and enjoys it.

With respect @85reasons it's advice like that, from parents who graduated decades ago when grad recruitment was different, which is putting many young people at a disadvantage. These days, it's worth thinking about what employers want just as much, if not more, than what your young person wants. Employers hold all the cards.

Why be such an aggravating tit?
I had thought that Oxbridge might be helpful in thr current graduate jobs market and so expressed my concern that dd has decided against applying. Came on here for reassurance/advice, which i've received.
Of course I'm invested in my dd. She's my dd. And her education and subsequent employment prospects are going to impact on my life and hers. Obviously i want her to mske the best choices for her and choosing university or otherwise is complicated an confusing and she's asked me to help.
Why be unnecessarily horrid?

I'd be interested to see whether it is better to do accounting or law at university than it is to do another degree and then a conversion afterwards - I was under the impression that you are not particularly encouraged to do either as a first degree.

I'm fully aware of the jobs market issues at present for young people, and think the decision re what to study should be a combination of what is good for one's prospects and what is good for one's passions. None of us have any idea what's going to happen with the jobs market in 5+ years time - I work in tech/innovation and even in meetings with senior bods in the big consultancies it's clear they're all flying a bit blind. This is an unusually uncertain period; it's not just about a lack of jobs.

Accountancy qualifications are level 7 actually, which is masters level.

Not really the point though, the point is you don’t have to waste 3 years and 30 grand at uni if your end goal is to be an accountant.

"I'd be interested to see whether it is better to do accounting ... at university than it is to do another degree and then a conversion afterwards"

If a school leaver wants to be an accountant, then getting an apprenticeship might be their best bet, and certainly the cheapest option.

An accounting degree would be the second cheapest way to get qualified, but obviously wouldn't guarantee you a job at the end. It would cost the same as doing an unrelated degree and then being employed by a company that sponsored your accountancy training ... but those opportunities have dwindled relative tho the number of applicants.

The most expensive way would be to do an unrelated degree and then pay for a conversion ... many would be put off by the prospect of a postgrad loan on top of their undergrad student loan ... and it still wouldn't guarantee you a job at the end.

That said, one good thing about accountancy is that if nobody wants to employ you then at least you're in a good position to start your own business without needing to pay an accountant to do your books. 🙂