DD decided against applying for Oxbridge

[SinuousTendrils]

My DD has finally decided not to apply for Oxbridge. Of course i realise she had a slim chance of getting in but I'd really hoped she'd throw her hat in the ring. With the current graduate jobs market as it is, I thought she might be in with a chance of a golden ticket if she got in.
Is it really that dire out there? Would a talented high achiever really struggle to find a career after uni? I've been advising her to consider her STEM subjects rather than literature, which i think she'd enjoy more...thinking at Oxbridge humanities degrees still have currency...it's so hard, isn't it?!

You do realise that not everyone is interested in doing law?

In my sector the majority of employers don’t care where people went to university.

I would guess law is very specific subject, students who do it are very focused and know there output and options over say geography. But also the climate has changed with graduate jobs and people have changed the way they are recruiting which is making everything so much harder. The absolute chaos on linkedin at the moment with AI adapting CVs to jobs.

A bright student will do well wherever they choose. What is important is choosing the right place for them to flourish both academically and personally. The graduate jobs have always been difficult to find. I recall finishing uni in the late 90s and very few of my peers had landed a graduate job. We all found regular jobs and worked hard to build careers from there. What I would say as a hiring manager is that it’s important to demonstrate more than just top grades. Grades don’t show they are reliable, honest or trustworthy. Holding down a part time job, regular voluntary work etc are equally important as grades and help the CV to stand out.

OP. I went to Cambridge. I have a always been a bit how you describe your daughter - intelligently capable, but no real passion for anything in particular. That sums up my career really.

So, although I had a good time at Cambridge, and I don't regret going, I wouldn't say it was a golden ticket for me. I have just never been particularly ambitious. So whilst I have a good job, I have worked with many people who have achieved a lot more than me, and some of those didn't even go to university. So I think a lot of this depends on the person, and not the university they go to.

Hope that helps.

The most successful people I know weren’t the brightest at school or good at everything. They have a passion or a niche interest/skill and that’s what drove them forward after school/university and set them out against others when interviewing for jobs.

I’d suggest you (gently) help her find out what she actually wants to do - even if that takes years and means she doesn’t go to university just now (or ever). A degrees no good if it’s in the wrong subject. She’d be better taking a gap year or working for a bit if she isn’t sure.

I think this is the most sensible advice so far. Right now, she's considering an apprenticeship in Estates at pur local hospital because the manager she met on work experience is so gorgeous 😅

Oxbridge is a high pressure environment that can be toxic. It’s not for everyone. I’d say that if she doesn’t want to go there wholeheartedly then she’s better not applying than ending up miserable for three years.

Perfect advice, thank you.
She's been doing lots of volunteering lately and really enjoying it.
She's very good at empathising with people and listening so has done well in mental health settings.

That would actually be a really good option, I am a big fan of apprenticeships and all the Estates teams I know struggle to recruit enough staff.

Have you considered St Andrews at all? It's probably not for everyone location wise, but I believe they are also flexible over modules that you study, creating choice over the course. I think it's a little like the American system and not uncommon to change your major after the first two years.

It might be best to decide on the degree before the Uni though. For instance a STEM course could be we placed at Imperial? Perhaps that could be another approach, with a gap year if that would help.

No university is a "golden ticket". It all depends on what you do during your degree. For example, having a job can gain valuable experience, as can work experience in the field. She can use her time studying to make contacts in the industry, attend extra lectures and seminars when possible, etc.

The number of people who literally turn up to lectures and hand their essays in, and then complain they can't get a job, is unreal. University is such an incredible experience, but it won't be spoon fed to you like it is at school. You have to want it, and you have to grab it with both hands. You can do this no matter what university you go to.

A lot of graduates struggle to get jobs because they've been lazy during their course, done the bare minimum, and not made the most of the tremendous number of opportunities surrounding them.

Being clever and academic isn’t the only indicator of being successful in later life. Let her make her own choices. Does she have ‘grit’? This is what she needs more than academic intellect.

My DD didnt know- we went and looked at some universites, researched courses but nothing leapt out at her. She applied and got a place at Warwick but decided on a year out to decide if this is what she wanted. She then applied for a degree apprenticeship and got it, this has been the best thing for her. It might be another option to consider.

Does she have a career plan/aim or at least a passion....? I honestly think the people who are most successful have a fairly clear goal (or at least a sphere of roles e.g. engineering, finance, medicine etc) in mind and then everything they do builds towards that. Most companies/organisations will be more impressed with relevant work experience, a clear passion for their industry/area of work, clearly researched and worked towards for a while and then a good degree from a Uni known for that subject(s), rather than a more randomly chosen Oxbridge degree - dont get me wrong, theyre very inoressive and its an amazing marker of academic acheivement but a candidate still needs to have other relevant skills and it still needs to be applicable to the roles she wants. If she has a long term plan, she can begin picking up volunteering and work experience now as well as applying for a relevant degree at a university that is highly prized for that subject/career path with good links to the industry/ies she is most interested in. For example, if finance interests her, she would be better placed to study at LSE as it has links to the City. If she wants to go into politics Oxbridge is a better bet whereas for engineering places like Bristol, Warwick and Imperial have strong links and a reputation in that sphere.

Equally, degrees are intense and it should be something she enjoys and can see herself focussed on for 3 years at least.

I think a gap year is a good idea, she can figure out her passions, figure out what kind of work suits her, do some relevant work experience or research and then go off to uni with a bit of a plan and enough understanding of herself to know that it's what she enjoys doing and wants to spend her time on.

Absolutely, I don't disagree with any of it. But lots of people told me the same things when I was doing A levels (in an attempt to maybe prep me for disappointment). But I just cannot deny the advantage it gave me at the start. And with AI, it's even more important for young people to 1) specialize in a career and 2) take any advantage they can get.

Going to Oxford in itself isn't a guarantee of anything. You still need to take advantage of opportunities presented there, still need to study, apply for jobs etc.

And also, just to counter some of the claims about it being toxic, while there were plenty of preppy public schools arseholes there, there were A LOT of very good kids too. Lots. Working class, not working class, I made some great friends, and my poor Eastern European background didn't cause me any grief there. If anything, I found it more of a level playing field than other environments.

For what it’s worth, my daughter is recruiting partner for one of the big 4 accountancy companies. They do ‘university blind’ sifting.

It’s about inclusivity and avoiding elitism (although plenty of the stunning maths and economics grads from the top unis are hopeless in the real world, so it’s not totally an altruistic policy.)

It sounds like you made absolutely the right choice and you worked very hard to get there but also took opportunities. I think taking the opportunities is so key rather than assuming a degree on your CV alone will get you the job.

After years of having bloody Oxbridge rubbed in my face by my snobby Dad and sibling who did attend, I am now more successful both financially and personally than said sibling.

Its the best thing I ever did. And when else in your life can you do this? She can always apply for a course but with it deferred for a year, assuming you can still do that. But spend that year maturing, getting some work and life experience. Take the visa opportunities for young people. And then go to uni a bit more mature

If she doesn’t have a ‘reason’ to go to uni then why is she even going?

She might be better having a good look at jobs on somewhere like Indeed, perhaps even applying for some, or if something catches her eye just asking to speak to someone from the company about l the best party to take to lead to that job. Some may need a degree (accountancy etc) and others may just need her to get an entry level
job and then have internal development schemes (surveying is one that comes to mind).

Just doing something at uni because you don’t know what to do is why people end up unemployed.

My first bit of advice would be for DD to take a gap year and uses it to work out what interests her long term. And then decide on a degree that will take her there. Remember university is only a stepping stone, not an end in itself.

And then I’d suggest doing internships, paid for work, sport - all the things that will develop her character. My DS went straight into a top investment bank at 22. There were on line tests first and then at the second interview he was told - ‘if you’ve got this far we assume you’re academically strong as is everyone that’s made it here. Now it’s about the ‘other stuff’ - teamwork, ability to respond in a crisis, resilience, presentation skills, work ethic’.

Those soft skills are the ‘golden ticket’.

Well certain universities don't get through the AI application process - that is true, hence the clamour for the Russell groups (I honestly find the whole backstory of this fascinating - the ultimate propaganda/PR exercise).

I don't think an Oxbridge degree opens as many doors as it previously did. Certainly for STEM Imperial seems to be amazingly good and the same is probably true for humanities at UCL.

My only up-to-date knowledge is a group of students from Imperial who are graduating this year onto amazing jobs or a PhD, but they did a four year Masters degree (rather than a standard 3 year undergrad and then a follow on Masters). It stood them in good stead to know what they wanted to do and then get on with it (rather than doing an undergrad, then falling into a masters and then wondering what they could do with that).
It seems to me that many grads from Oxbridge used to have amazing connections. This makes the university look like it has magic dust, but really it's the silver spoon that did that. A lot of the very well connected are actually going to Europe or the States so even befriending/networking with those people at Oxbridge (who might be able to give you a leg up later in life) is less likely.
I'd focus on her having a firm plan of what career she wants to do post degree before she applies for anywhere. She needs to work out how she will show she is exceptional to employers (a 1st won't cut it, it is the work experience and extra things she does that will help her stand out). It's fine for her to change her mind but the only certainly she has of jumping on a humanities degree with no plan is that it is going to lead to a 30-70k life time debt. Few can afford University to be the middle class finishing school it was back in the 90s.

Absolutely to this, as another person with a poor overseas background. I did encounter some prejudice, but I also made excellent friends, encountered the kind of people I didn't know existed, had my horizons exponentially broadened, and loved my studies.

But when was this? Recruitment has become consciously more equitable over time.

I've no doubt some recruiters do still target Oxbridge and other top unis (some prefer Imperial to Oxbridge), and that may open some doors not available to others, but they are a very small minority of employers.

Degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re written on these days (outside of very specific careers). Wasting time and money on uni is a poor decision and a bad start to working life and finances.

If she’s “no burning desire” for anything in particular she’s better off just getting a job. The ideal would be a form of apprenticeship, which will lead to a professional qualification, or maybe even a degree itself. There’s so much choice these days.