DD decided against applying for Oxbridge

[SinuousTendrils]

My DD has finally decided not to apply for Oxbridge. Of course i realise she had a slim chance of getting in but I'd really hoped she'd throw her hat in the ring. With the current graduate jobs market as it is, I thought she might be in with a chance of a golden ticket if she got in.
Is it really that dire out there? Would a talented high achiever really struggle to find a career after uni? I've been advising her to consider her STEM subjects rather than literature, which i think she'd enjoy more...thinking at Oxbridge humanities degrees still have currency...it's so hard, isn't it?!

I'm not sure of your metaphor.

Oxbridge might be the "golden ticket" for some students.
However, those students might do equally well somewhere else.

I might be a person that likes celery but be equally happy with cucumber if the shop doesn't stock it.

"I'd rather be at Oxford than at John's" is sung in a lighthearted manner to the tune of "She'll be coming round the mountain" during any sports fixtures against them. They have a reputation for being unbearably smug / superior and it's telling that no other college has anything similar. Some people there genuinely seemed to care about what school I went to and were baffled when I hadn't heard of the one they had attended

It absolutely isn't a golden ticket - I agree with that completely, but graduate jobs are brutally competitive at the moment and an Oxbridge degree that meets the grade criteria is unlikely to harm their chances of an interview. (If they're a complete bellend then having Oxon / Cantab on your CV won't outweigh this)

My point was more that just because your friend hated it, their experience isn't typical and many others do. I accept that some people like celery and that it would be silly to take my vegetabular preferences as life advice

Oxbridge has a massive mh problem- kids pressured to apply, not fitting in, not doing well when previously everything has been easy - I didn’t apply, my teachers were angry because it would have been a feather in their cap . But it was a great decision and I have never regretted it.

I think your DD is perhaps quite unusual in being such a high achiever but lacking a burning passion for any of her subjects. I don't have any statistical data to prove this, but having studied at Oxford myself and having taught various kids over the years who applied (or didn't), the linking factor in the vast majority of people who were accepted, was that they passionately loved their subject and couldn't have imagined studying anything else....

For that reason, I feel your daughter may be making the right choice? And something with a more specific vocational focus might suit her better? As it sounds like she will be studying in order to achieve a certain outcome, rather than for love of the subject itself.

(My daughter, in contrast, is in Year 9 and has already told me the course she wants to apply for and what Oxford college she wants to go to! And is absolutely adamant about this, and gets quite annoyed with me when I point out that many many intelligent people apply and don't make it..... But it's love of the subject that drives her (and she may of course change her mind) - she hasn't got a clue what she wants to do afterwards. I find this all quite worrying too, if I am honest!

I agree with this. When I worked in graduate recruitment, there were different points we'd give when marking applications for those who have worked versus those who had not. Also we looked to see if their enthusiasm for the scheme matched their actions.

Best way to be employed afterwards is to do a vocational degree.

They do say now that employers are more interested in the achievements of an individual rather than their qualifications.

She wouldn't get in without displaying a burning desire and a passion for her subject. The interviews are brutal.

@Ilovelurchers yes, she's a bit of an anomoly i think. Leaning towards degree apprenticeship but prob more competitive tgan oxbridge.
My youngest similar to yours, has known what she wants to do since she was 11, already well on the path to getting on her chosen course in y9, with similar ability to dd1 across the board but burning passion for one thing. Which of course has its own issues, especially in the field she's after. Who knew parenting got harder as you go on?!

I went to Glasgow uni and it was an amazing time. I didn't know what I really wanted to be when I grew up, and now have a Csuite title working in another country. People here think it is fascinating that I am from Scotland/studied there and my degree takes me much further than one from this country would (and the ones here cost so much money, mine was free). Maybe Oxbridge would go even further here, but Glasgow has not held me back in the slightest.

One thing I wish I could say to my younger self is not to focus on doing something I’m achieving high grades in etc., but considering courses that lead to a specific vocational outcome - in a career that would be an enjoyable way to spend a day as opposed to just doing it for the money and waiting for the work day to finish! So many courses can either lead to being as stuck for options as you were when first starting, or requiring post graduate experience just to be able to get onto another course. I’m sure others have different experiences, but this certainly is my advice!

To add to mine - my mum pushed me towards (in my opinion at the time a boring job) but I as very good at numbers and it ended up being something I excelled at. Studying it at uni didn't excite me, but it has paid dividends in the long run and I am extremely glad she did look at long term jobs. I really enjoy my job now, and got to specialise in an area I genuinely like. I wanted to apply to a course with 1000 students a year per uni (science based) and she pushed me away from it talking about no jobs at the end.

Why are you worried? She wants to apply to other very good universities. I assume she is in year 12? She has time before she needs to decide.

I heard someone from a modern company ( possibly AI) saying what they needed were not computer/graduates anymore so much as those who can think widely. So humanities are good for that.

I am sorry not to be more specific about the programme where I heard that person speaking. It was Radio 4 within the last 4 months.

OP it was Steve Hyde talking on the Today Programme on 7th May this year. Unfortunately the episode is unavailable on BBC Sounds.

But here is mention of it from PUSH.
https://www.pushgroup.co.uk/blog/why-uk-businesses-must-hire-ai-native-graduates-not-digital-natives

Excerpt ( my bolding):

For companies hesitating on early-career talent, the window to adapt is already closing. Here's what the conversation revealed about the future of graduate hiring, and what it means for your recruitment strategy.
‍
Graduate Jobs Aren't Disappearing, They're Evolving
Graduate vacancies are down, yes. But Steve Hyde made it clear on the programme: this isn't job elimination. It's role transformation.

According to Hyde, the pattern mirrors what happened when the internet reshaped business. Jobs didn't vanish, they morphed. The same applies to AI. Businesses now need fresh perspectives and fresh thinking more than ever, but only from graduates who are prepared to work with AI, not alongside it passively.

Professor Gina Neff, Professor of Responsible AI at Queen Mary University of London and Deputy CEO of Responsible AI UK, reinforced this. Stanford economists recently called young workers "canaries in the coal mine" when it comes to AI's impact on jobs. UK employers face slow growth, inflation concerns, and technological disruption. Early adopters of AI gain a structural advantage. Young workers who can jump into this environment have "the opportunity to jump on the fast elevator to the second floor of their careers."

The Today programme's discussion highlighted a fundamental tension: employers need to capture the gains from AI to improve their products and services, and that creates opportunities for graduates who understand how to work in that environment.
‍
Why AI Natives Beat Digital Natives
Digital natives grew up with smartphones and cloud platforms. They adapt to interfaces quickly. AI natives do something fundamentally different.

They understand how to collaborate with intelligence, not just tools. They structure problems around what machines can automate and what humans must own. They know how to guide AI, spot when it's wrong, and use it as leverage instead of a threat.

Steve used a telling example from Push's recent hiring; the agency no longer looks at 28-year-olds with six or seven years of marketing experience. Instead, they recently hired a graduate from Exeter University with a degree in philosophy.
Ten years ago, Push would have targeted maths, business, or economics graduates. Not anymore.

Not really! My point was in response to the OP's worries. Not everyone enjoys Oxbridge and it also doesn't guarantee a particular easy ride for your career.

DD is all 9s at GCSE and A*s at Alevel and chose not to apply. Nor was she interested in Durham or London. It simply wasn’t what she wanted. She’s been very happy at Glasgow but she also loved Manchester and Leeds.

Sorry, posted too soon: I wanted to say that she has always been very focused and has engaged in extra and super curricular activities that will enhance her CV on graduation. She’s also undertaken voluntary and paid placements and doesn’t seem particularly concerned that her university choice will hold her back.
Better a happy graduate than a prestigious drop out! Although I don’t personally see her choice as being in any way ‘lesser’ than had she chosen to apply to Oxbridge.

Even with law. Know a 26 year old who recently made partner , got her low degree from Leeds Beckett ( a first ) and 3 a* at a level . Had plenty of work experience during the summer at law firms since they were 18. Super efficient lawyer!

My nephew got an offer from Cambridge this year and decided to decline it.

@JuliettaCaeser Hi. Do you mind me asking where the fashion course is please? My DC looking at doing a fashion course but I have zero clue about any of it. Thank you

There is no such thing as a golden ticket.
I think she’s made a good choice in not apply.
FWIW I went to Oxford and if I had my time again would choose differently. It’s not for everyone regardless of how bright the child is

Sheffield is a great university and city for students

@ScrollingLeaves now that you've found it hopefully you've twigged that a "digital native" is not a computer science grad - its someone who has grown up with smartphones, i.e. gen Z. Employers now want people who have grown up with AI and know how to use it to best effect.

There will still be ongoing demand for computer science grads, and especially the ones who have taken AI-related modules.

Also, humanities grads who know how to use AI to good effect will be more employable than those who don't.