DD refusing to consider Oxbridge: are her reasons valid?

[ArtichokeDip]

DD is in year 12 at our local school. She has never related to the studious high achieving crowd at school. They are not the people she finds it easy to be friends with. She is quite a hedonist and enjoys parties, clubs, dancing, long nights out.

At GCSE she got exceptional grades for her school: 5x9, 4x8. Her passio is English Lit and she wants to study that at uni. Her A-level English teacher says she is already consistently working at A star level and that seems to be true for History and for RE too. This week the school asked her to join a new Oxbridge application prep group they are trailing . DD declined.

DD is convinced she won’t make friends at Oxbridge because she believes everyone will be very studious and there will be few people who enjoy nights out like she likes. She says there will be too much study and not enough fun. Are these valid reasons? How much is it worth pushing back and trying to change her mind? She currently only dreams of applying to big Northern city unis with busy night lives: Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. All great places but is it crazy not to explore Oxbridge applications if you have a chance?

Is that so?

My daughter went to one of those week experiences at Oxford, to encourage kids from ordinary backgrounds to apply. I think it was called UNIQ. She had fun there, but ultimately didn’t want to apply, went to Durham and it doesn’t seem to have damaged any career prospects.
I suppose if I’m really honest, it would have been nice to tell people “my daughters at Oxford”! But that’s my embarrassing little issue, not hers. And now years later it matters not a jot.

Lol. I went to Oxford from a very rural background and it was bright lights big city for me.

I was under the impression that people went to University to study to gain a degree which would help them in their chosen career, not for 'partying'. Whilst a social life is important, I don't think your DD should allow it to influence her choice of University - she is lucky that she is clever enough to get into Oxbridge - don't waste that opportunity.

Surely she’ll benefit from these sessions so may be worth trying to convince her to do them. Also worth taking her to an open day at the very least. If she doesn’t like it, so be it. It’s never a bad thing to keep your options open.

Someone who is not happy with the place they are living for 3/4 years will not do as well as they could.

I think that her reasons are valid and it’s yours that are a bit flawed!

Her GCSE graders might be exceptional for her school but they are not exceptional in the wider field of applicants. The brightest kids will have achieved all 9s.

Also there are higher ranked unis than Oxford and Cambridge for English Lit, notably Durham and St Andrews, both in the north.

As PP have said, there’s no point in you trying to force her to go where you what for your own reasons , even if they were based on fact. She has to find the course and uni that’s right for her.

FWIW, 3 of my kids all got better grades that your DD. The oldest did in fact go to Oxford and it was a big mistake - it wasn’t the right place for her and she didn’t enjoy it at all. Basically she wasn’t clever or focussed enough and like your DD , she had more interest in her social life. She did graduate but she didn’t have as much fun as she would elsewhere. She has a good career now but it’s not amazing and she could have done the same with a degree from another good uni.

DD2 and DS were not interested in Oxbridge as they didn’t like the vibe and they weren't the best courses for their subjects. DD2 graduated as the top student in her year, has done 2 further degrees and is doing very well in her career. Each of her degrees has been done in the best places for that course.

DS is a final year undergraduate doing a different subject but also at the best place in the Uk for his subject, he’s had the best time and is on track for a first. He did consider Cambridge for his post grad but again he prefers the course structure elsewhere.

I had a Dc tipped for Oxbridge by 6th form teachers. They did Open days at both and recoiled in horror from a range of factors. From the repeated emphasis on pastoral support (‘the system obviously affects your MH, otherwise they wouldn’t keep going on about it’) to attitudes to elitism - ( 2 unfortunate references to college staff with an outlook that Dc recoiled from, to their credit IMO), overbearing atmosphere of tradition and religion (matriculation in the chapel etc) . Also the Nat Sci structure of STEM teaching at Cambridge didn’t appeal.

Declined to apply, went to a competitive RG, had a ball, loved the city, ran a club night with friends as a lucrative hobby, got a good degree and walked into a degree related job straight after graduating.

I will admit that I would have enjoyed the kudos of being able to say Dc was at Oxford or Cambridge, especially to my family, but obviously enjoy my Dc’s ability to thrive and succeed in their own way more.

It’s worth going to the Open Days though.

@ArtichokeDip I mentioned work opportunities but also said prepare for work whilst at university. She should still go to university but make a big effort to get ready for employment and decide as early as possible about what that might look like. Plenty of very bright Oxbridge grads get a wake up call when they cannot get work in the field they want.

I do think parents support dc in decisions. So don’t back out completely but do plenty of research. My DDs friend did English at Manchester and now works in USA making advertisements for tv. She knew what she wanted to do and got her ducks in a row, so to speak. Few employers will ever care about the books you read. They will care about your skills and what you can do. Many good universities can set you up with these skills but dc need to grasp opportunities of clubs and activities. Be a leader in something.

She could get into Oxbridge. It’s a bit of a lottery and no one should put her off. However English from those universities is not necessarily better than elsewhere in terms of enjoying university. So she’s not wrong!

Of course you cannot make her do stem. My DD has 9 x A stars at GCSE back in the day but wasn’t a scientist at heart. So they really must study what interests them.

To be honest, as a former teacher, my question to any sixth former applying to university would be,"is this the right choice, is it going to pay off with a career"

The world is changing very fast in terms of employment - graduates in many disciplines are finding it harder and harder to find work, with jobs diminishing.

In 4 years time, when she would finish her degree course (assuming a 3 year) what's the position going to be job wise.

Then, assuming she feels confident of getting work I would choose the best fit university for that subject area, most respected by employers.

With respect of the love of English, a friend of mine is a columnist for the Telegraph, a person with a real love of English and English literature and real wordsmith, never set foot in any university - my point being, you can love English, read copiously, but study something that will give you a better chance of a paying career.

Its pretty cheap to go overseas, USA is obviously pricey but lots of English speaking courses around the world at highly ranked universities aside from the obvious ones in Australia and South Africa. You can put 9k a year in an isa for a child.

Not wanting to go to Oxbridge is valid. Her reasons aren't and are a bit silly.

But there's no guarantee she'd get in anyway.

See, I didn't say most achieve these grades, most bright students who work hard. For such a cohort, 8s and 9s aren't exceptional they are expected.

Good point!

An individual student from Cambridge with one at highly regarded Russell Group uni with same grade profile? Might be identical

Taken at a macro level (if you can call English students at university a large enough sample size) a Cambridge student is more likely to be obsessed with the subject; more likely to want to spend more time working; likely be highly articulate and ready to debate; happy to have their work heavily critiqued; happy to produce essays at a fast rate that are less than perfect rather than spending hours perfecting a single essay; likely to be more interested in traditional texts and ways of studying rather than more contemporary texts and more modern ways etc.

To give you another example - DD is studying English at top university (which has A stars and As as entry criteria). On her course there are some students who literally read one or two of the texts for each module (enough to complete the assessments/exams); some who go to most of the lectures and seminars, read all or most of the core texts and some of the additional material; and some who go to everything read everything, read all the additional material and pro-actively seek out even wider reading. I suspect at Oxbridge there would be none of the "bare minimum" type students and more of the "read everything" type.

👏excellent post

I don't know @redskyAtNigh. DS knew quite a few 'bare minimum' types at Cambridge. He also knew people who were not necessarily doing the bare minimum, but who got in a total flap for all kinds of reasons and had to intermit (repeat a year).

I would encourage her to go to the prep sessions completely regardless of wanting to apply or not. Critical thinking skills will be very useful and interview prep invaluable for anything she applies to in future.

I think there are 2 uni experiences: Oxbridge and anywhere else. They simply aren't comparable in terms of culture, friendships, study and I don't think you can experience both.

I nearly went to Cambridge but didn't at the last minute - I sometimes got a pang of 'hogwarts-regret' because it looks kinda cool with the robes and the cache but I'm so glad I went where I did, I had the best time, got a great degree and lived a somewhat more normal existence.

The nightlife and general fun in a big city like Manchester or York are unrivalled, she's only young once

‘overbearing atmosphere of tradition and religion (matriculation in the chapel etc) .’

Tradition yes, but religion????
This wasn’t true at Oxford 50 years ago when I went, so I can’t believe it’s true now. FWIW, I didn’t matriculate in a chapel but in that central building, whatever it’s called.
If matriculation is in a chapel, so what. There are so many students of other faiths, I can’t believe they aren’t extremely careful with religion.

Don’t push her to apply. I went and it was a pretty rough experience. As soon as the car would get anywhere near the city at the start of term I would feel the stress set in.

The workload was insane (2 essays to research and write every week plus lectures and tutorials) and the privilege and entitlement of many of the other students hard to stomach. Plus loads of reading and revision every holiday. I was really into music, clubbing and comedy and felt that my social life there was rubbish.

As a state school kid I was very surprised that the other state school kids all seemed to be the sort who’s parents had made some kind of political statement sending them to the local state school rather than a private school (e.g wealthy kids of doctors, lawyers, head teachers) I met one other person with parents who had regular jobs.

I was one of the few students with a term time job (the uni actively discouraged this) and this made the inequality very noticeable. I either had no time or no money to go out much at all.

Absolutely rife with eating disorders, it seemed to go with the high achieving perfectionist atmosphere and every year you would have a wave of people drop out at the last minute just before exams and many of my fellow students took their own lives in the years afterwards.

I honestly don’t feel that it opened any doors for me - granted that seems to be much more relevant if you are looking at a career in academia or a corporate city job at a big accountancy or magic circle law firm which I wasn’t.

There were obviously, good things about going - the access to experts in fields, the libraries and the fact it is a genuinely lovely place and it is very sporty if she’s into that but if she’s into a good night life it sucks!

People do go out but it my time it was a very rugby, pub golf, drinking society, misogynistic, bullingdon club crowd and their hangers on.

If she’s having doubts it’s really not worth it. She’ll probably end up dropping out or miserable.

Ahahaha, I am well aware how to invest for my child, thanks.

The 'is that so' was directed at your 'woke' comment.

(I wouldn't want my kids at a US uni in a month of Sundays, what with the cuts and threats of cuts that Trump sprays out left right and centre)

The "bare minimum" at Oxbridge with weekly tutorials/supervisions so nowhere to hide, is a rather higher bar than other universities though.

I did my Masters degree with someone from Oxbridge and was astonished to hear that they had been told by their tutor never to read a full paper, just the digests that are produced of papers in this discipline. They came a cropper in the first seminar on our MA course when they answered a question and the lecturer said "That's what the digest says but the digest is wrong". I was quite struck by it as at my RG university we had been taught to always read the full paper; colleague was appalled to hear that they were going to have to do so much more reading...

They have 3 or 4 months off in the summer. A month at Xmas and a month at Easter. Is that not enough time to go clubbing?

If you don't want to bother jumping though the extra hoops required for Oxbridge admissions, that's perfectly valid. But choosing a uni on the basis of nightclubs is a bit short-sighted, imo. They might as well choose a uni based on there being particular clothes shops or matcha bars.