DD refusing to consider Oxbridge: are her reasons valid?

[ArtichokeDip]

DD is in year 12 at our local school. She has never related to the studious high achieving crowd at school. They are not the people she finds it easy to be friends with. She is quite a hedonist and enjoys parties, clubs, dancing, long nights out.

At GCSE she got exceptional grades for her school: 5x9, 4x8. Her passio is English Lit and she wants to study that at uni. Her A-level English teacher says she is already consistently working at A star level and that seems to be true for History and for RE too. This week the school asked her to join a new Oxbridge application prep group they are trailing . DD declined.

DD is convinced she won’t make friends at Oxbridge because she believes everyone will be very studious and there will be few people who enjoy nights out like she likes. She says there will be too much study and not enough fun. Are these valid reasons? How much is it worth pushing back and trying to change her mind? She currently only dreams of applying to big Northern city unis with busy night lives: Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. All great places but is it crazy not to explore Oxbridge applications if you have a chance?

My DC were both picked out for the Oxbridge prep group.
one was a very gifted Mathematician.
Both chose not to apply to Oxbridge for similar reasons - too much work- then narrowly missed out on their first choice RG unis! They still did well at their 2nd choice RG unis. Both got Firsts. The mathematical one went on to get a very good Masters & is about to start a graduate traineeship at one of the most prestigious financial institutions in the world.
it is easy at the time of uni applications to focus on wanting ‘the best’ for your child. But they know their own minds & I now know that ‘good’ and happy is a great combo!
Listen to your daughter.

One thing to add to the mix-of course your DD school wants the best for her but they also want to say how many of their students went to Oxford so they look good. A feather in their cap.

I think it really needs to be your DD choice-good or bad/right or wrong because she is the one who has to live with it.
Being happy at Uni is so linked to overall success.

DS went to Newcastle and absolutely loved it.
Was happy, loved the balance of work and play (and sport in his experience)
Now has a great job and has lovely friends from his time there. His choice!

Not my experience at all.

Yes, I agree with this. One of mine went to a 'bridge' and one ended up turning down a Cambridge offer to go to the US instead. He was wavering, but in the end knew it wasn't the experience he wanted, which I completely understand.

But at this point, I'd encourage your daughter to take the offer. For now, it's really just about a bit of extra support and keeping her options as wide open as possible. It doesn't bind her to any decisions.

Besides the stellar academic credentials and kudos, there are other things to recommend Oxbridge. For anyone interested in theatre there are great extra-curricular opportunities e.g. Footlights, ADC at Cambridge. Not all colleges are stuffed full of public school types - the less 'traditional' ones have a more diverse mix of backgrounds.

Are the courses available at Cambridge and Oxford appealing to her? Can she be persuaded to go and look around or speak to anyone who is there/has been there?

But at the end of the day, maybe she has a strong picture of what she wants her life post 18 to look like and it doesn't look like Oxbridge. You probably need to trust her judgment..

Are your reasons for wanting her to to go more valid than her reasons for not wanting to go?

DS went to Cambridge. I’d say that it is a place where you work hard and play hard. He loved it. But there are many other good universities so let her decide where she wants to go.

I know a number of very bright young people who have made similar decisions, which I think are entirely valid. I know several there who have struggled as well as several who are thriving. I wasn’t particularly encouraging when my own DD briefly considered it as it really wouldn’t have suited her (but she didn’t have the passion for the subject either). It does have a cachet with employers, but she would be much more likely to get a 1st in one of the other universities which balances it up a bit.

Haha one of my best friends went to Oxford and I wouldn’t describe her as very studious tbh!

Oxbridge is not for everyone though and she does have a point about the short terms and workload. The other unis you mention are great too and she’d have loads of fun.
She should add Liverpool to the list.

Why not encourage her to go to an Oxbridge open day and if she still doesn’t think it’s for her after that fair enough

Cindies 4evaaaaaaa

Maybe say to her, join the group, go to one Oxbridge open day, and you'll support her whatever she chooses. She shouldn't be put off that there's no nightlife (there is) but if it's not for her, it's not for her -- I had a lot of friends who were smart enough to go but went to Edinburgh/Leeds/Manchester/Bristol instead. But I did go, loved it, and loved going out (there was a coach trip to ministry of sound lol)

I work in a commercial environment but in the academic branch of that and with a lot of Oxbridge graduates. Of a group of 240 people, ca. 2 are exceptionally clever people and both Oxbridge grads, but the others don't stand out from the sea of general grads. There are non-Oxbridge grads who do stand out. So I would say it's far from necessary for success and she should follow her heart.

Any reason is a valid reason, it's her choice.

(Many!) years ago I received an offer from Oxford and turned it down because I felt it wouldn’t suit me. I worried that the very intensive workload and short terms would mean I could do little else. So I went to a good RG uni instead. I have never regretted that decision in part because I did do lots of other things like being involved in the student union which in some ways gave me an edge when applying for jobs because I had a good education AND other experience (I ran a team and had a budget when part of the union.)

That said, it is not true (or wasn’t back in the day) that there is no social life outside of studying. My DH went to Oxford and had a whale of a time. No extra curriculars though - unless you count drinking… My DH is from an extremely privileged background, but lots of his friends from university aren’t. I would say though, on average, my friends who went to Cambridge enjoyed their time more than the ones who went to Oxford.

I think I would encourage my DD to apply, but make it very clear that even if she received an offer, she would have a free choice as to whether to take it. It’s always worth keeping options open and she should visit various colleges before she decides whether to apply or not, because they all have a different feel. There was only one college that felt right to me and I wouldn’t have applied to any others.

I went to Cambridge. I had plenty of fun tbh. But that's not the point.

If your dd isn't keen on applying to Oxford or Cambridge, there are plenty of other excellent universities she could go to instead. My own dd was certainly very bright but chose not to apply to Oxbridge because she really didn't like their courses in her chosen subject.

I had an amazing experience in Cambridge and I am grateful that I had that opportunity, but I don't think it's right for everyone and young people should be supported to choose what's right for them.

Download Tik tok. Watch the videos titled ' let me de influence Oxford/ Cambridge for you'. There are lots of other videos on ' join me for a day at Cambridge '.These are made by students who are there. It's very eye opening.

"People who graduated from oxbridge over 20 years ago are often quite stuck up and very out of step with the times. There is an obsession with the past and traditions which are often at odds with the world we live in." (Sorry, quote function not working.)

Sorry, but this is just inverted snobbery! I completely get that Oxbridge isn't for everybody, including a significant number of people who have the academic ability and potential to go there. And I'm quite sure some Oxbridge graduates are stuck up and out of step with the times etc. But most of them?! Quite a lot of people go to Oxbridge. What they have in common is high academic ability and having spent several years in an unusual environment of tradition, beauty and privilege. Otherwise, like any other cohort of people, some of them are nice, some are unkind, some are narrow-minded and judgemental, some are warm and open and tolerant, some are extrovert, some introvert etc etc. What you're saying is just lazy stereotyping.

It may well not be for the OP's DD and that's fine and a decision she should be totally at liberty to make. But no need to be casually horrible about the people that do make the decision to go there.

Mind you, if that were the reason, she could still apply to Cambridge! 😂

More seriously op, I think your DD is right to trust her instincts if she is wanting a wild university experience (and why not!)

The way Oxbridge teaches means that there is more pressure than other universities. The pressure has only increased in recent decades. The other thing I would say is working at A Star for A level is no guarantee she is working the Oxbridge way. Put differently, most applicants will have A stars and won't all be the candidates they are looking for. I say that not to be rude, but to ground the idea that she will necessarily a) get in and b) flourish, which I think will help you curb your disappointment at her not wanting to apply. Her teachers may think she is a sure thing, but most teachers do when suggesting their pupils apply..

To be honest, from what you have said about her plans, she isn't the right candidate. They do party, but it is lower on the list of priorities. These students are (and I don't mean this negatively actually) genuine geeks in the sense they are utterly driven by that they study. The flip side is I don't agree with the social/not fitting in fears: they take all types because their "type" is an academic one, not a social /class-based one.. Don't believe Saltburn! That world is decades out of date! IME the people who say they didn't fit in because of snobby people tend to be people whose strengths were not social anyway ( which is fine.)

@ArtichokeDip To be honest, she is probably right. With short terms, the work is intense. If you are not sure you want this intensity, I’m not sure it’s worth it because she won’t be happy. It’s reasonable for the school to have an Oxbridge group and if other dc want it, fair enough.

English is a strange subject too. Very traditional at Oxford and she might not like this either. She might also be aware that English grads are going to have to think very carefully about careers and work experience and career guidance will pay off. Just a degree these days isn’t enough. A less intense degree gives more time to work or volunteer.

My DD got a place at Oxford but didn’t go. Do be aware that good people really will get what they want from other RG universities. Manchester and Leeds are fine and if she’s intending to work in the north, Oxford and Cambridge have less currency. I’m assuming her ambitions are not law in London or finance! I would let her go where she wants but talk to her asap about careers because earnings for English grads are low (ifs data).

Her reasons are very valid. It sounds like she knows it just wouldn't be a good fit for her, so don't try to push it. If she doesn't want to go to the group just support her in her other choices.

My DD1 actually walked out of an interview for Oxford and came home realising that it just wasn't for her. She never regretted that for a moment and got a 1st from Warwick. She has great friends from there and a good career now which she began within eight weeks of leaving uni.

To be honest, I think people over-hype the 'all work, no play' trope about Oxbridge. Of course those towns are not London or Manchester, but then neither is Durham or Bath - or anywhere that is not London or Manchester .

There are some bookish types there, sure, but there are obviously a whole spectrum of 'types.' There is more to uni than just going to large clubs most nights. Would that not get boring after the first term? Students find their own ways to socialise and 'party,' wherever they are. Even if it's hiring punts while off their faces at 4am and then wheeling each other home in shopping trolleys.

My DC did not pull 22 hour library stints or any this type of thing. There are some students who do this, but they are not the majority and not the ones who necessarily get the best grades either. I genuinely can't see how Oxbridge students are any different in terms of their personalities to students at any other uni who got As and A stars at school. Why would they be?

The terms are shorter but, if anything, that's less pressure because they have longer holidays! Also, at Cambridge (I'm sure Oxford is the same), they are catered for (but have their own kitchens too), are guaranteed accommodation for the whole 3 years and have their beds changed for them. They don't have to worry about not having time to go food shopping or finding accommodation. All that 'practical' type of stress is removed.

Honestly, my DS is reasonably bright but no different to an average student at Durham or UCL or any similar uni. Why would he be? Yes he got into Cambridge, but he could just as easily not have. The selection process is hardly a perfect science - they turn down thousands who could have thrived there. DS got a starred first in a humanities subject, but I can honestly say, he has never read a book since he was 12. He did work hard for finals, but in general, he was probably socialising, in some form or other, 4 or 5 nights a week, in his own or other colleges, bars, etc. There are 30 odd colleges which means 30 odd bars, all with their own events going on all the time. It's only 48 mins to London if you really must go to a massive club. But he lives in London anyway - he was only away for 3 x 8 weeks in a year. I just think there is unnecessary hype about Oxbridge when it's no different to other similar unis. An essay is an essay - they can spend an hour in it, or 20 hours. Any degree is what you make it.

There are parties and clubbing and nights out at oxbridge, but there's a lot of work and pressure too.

If you want to go out most nights of the week it's not going to work imo.

One, possibly two nights a week out are doable.

Its also difficult to have weekends away during term time - I went to a non oxbridge uni and that was not a problem there.

I've had friends who partied hard at Oxford. They didn't get stellar grades - 2:2s - but have still been incredibly successful in their careers, all arts grads fwiw. This is going back a couple of decades though.

Having had friends at both, I think Oxford has the edge for someone who likes partying, you're pretty close to London too. It's also probably better for English.

I'd encourage her to go for an open day and see what she thinks but agree it's not for everyone and she needs to lead.

If I were looking out for her best interests, I'd focus less on Oxbridge and more on the fact English Lit, even from Oxbridge, is not a remotely marketable degree unless she wants to be a teacher or an academic (which it doesn't sound like she does). I speak as a Lit grad with a first from a good uni who has had to do 2 subsequent degrees in order to become even slightly credible in the employment market.

Really strongly encourage her to make the best use of her three years of further study in a way that will give her a good start on adulthood. She can read books and think about them and even write about them in her own time, and probably get more pleasure from them that way. She'd do better using uni to learn something she can't teach herself.

I do agree with these comments about English grads. I know handfuls of Oxbridge English grads. Some are doing what they always wanted and have simply moved through to academia, which is an academic dream realised, but not really a financially lavish lifestyle It's right for them.

The ones who didn't get the academic placements - or who didn't want them - have managed to forge their way, one way or another: it's a mark of the kind of students they take that they set their mind to things. But truthfully, much of it has been a bit cobbled together and they make more of their Oxbridge background having played a role in it than I think is genuinely true. There isn't much they are doing that they couldn't have done without that degree. It mostly gave them - and them alone - confidence to try their hand at it. But they haven't had smooth or astonishingly successful career paths. It's genuinely something you do for the love of it, not a high-paying job.

Dd is a recent Cambridge graduate. The decision to go was solely hers and she was thrilled to gain a place. Whilst there were highlights in her time, in her own words, she did not thrive there . Terms are v short and everyone is under a lot of pressure . Fun and partying happens but there is less time for it than at other unis (certainly compared to her DB's non Oxbridge Russell Group uni anyway).

On the plus side , she is loving life after Cambridge and so values the free time and fun she is having now.

As parents we feel guilty that we encouraged her to take up the Oxbridge opportunity without fully realising how different it is to other uni experiences. I would strongly advise against pushing a reluctant offspring towards it. It's your daughter who has to live it after all.