Uni choices: what you like vs what pays the rent. What would you tell a teenager?

[CForCake]

A younger relative will choose her A level subjects next year and wants to talk about university choices to me and my partner at a family event in a few weeks.

I am curious about comparing views and experiences on how other people have framed the matter of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

My view is that (almost) any decision can be the right one if it is an informed decision.

So don't study business law or banking thinking you will get the most meaningful, creative, impactful jobs making the world a better place, but at the same time don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job.

From previous conversations, this girl like STEM subjects and liked the idea of becoming a teacher.
My issue with that is that she may not appreciate that 1 or 2 generations ago a couple with two teacher jobs could buy a flat and raise a family in London, while that has become impossible now, without financial help from the family (which she won't get). She always said she's frugal and doesn't care about money, but there is not wanting a Ferrari and there is not being able to afford rent and childcare. It's easy to say you don't care about money when you don't work and everything is paid for by your parents.

If she brings up teaching again, I would mention that she needs to appreciate that being a teacher is financially very challenging in London, and might mean relocating somewhere else with a cheaper cost of living.

At the same time, I would never tell her to consider banking or law or tech just because of the money.

So what is a reasonable balance?

Stem degrees are very marketable.

she may change her mind on teaching although k stem subjects she’d be snapped up and it’s not like you are ever going to be made redundant.

(ex maths teacher)

Dd did a creative arts degree. She’s in her late thirties, has never earned enough to start paying off her student loan and isn’t even working directly in the arts. STEM subjects sound like a very sensible choice.

A 17 year old is very unlikely to want the same career in 5 or 10 years time as they do now. At the moment a teacher might be the only professional scientist they know. Her eyes might be opened when she can see wider opportunities or she might decide that teaching is a good first career

I agree, teaching STEM you'll get a job for sure. It's not that badly paid either tbh - min starting salary is £32k.

I wouldn't want to be a classroom teacher again but the money is not the reason.

If she is keen on STEM then a combo like maths, FM, physics, chemistry or biology will keep lots of doors open - yes teaching and also medicine, engineering and obvs the specific subjects.

She could also go into banking or law with those A levels.

If she chooses STEM, it's important to take maths and physics if she might want to be an engineer, FM too ideally; also FM if thinking of maths degree; if medicine is the aim she would be best with bio and chem, tho there are unis accepting one or the other. Which A,levels she needs to take for possible courses is more important rn than decisions about teaching vs law.

I'm likely to be shot down in flames for this, but I think if they don't have a clear vision of what they want to do - Doctor/Lawyer, etc - you might as well be honest with them and say it doesn't matter particularly. I wish someone had made me go when I had just done A Levels as I was accepted to Cardiff and Nottingham to some pretty good degrees but chose to work and start a family instead because I was worried about setting my future in stone for a career I wasn't sure of. By the time I was bored of my limited job choices I was stuck in a small town with a very basic Uni and limited options on what to study with kids in tow. In hindsight I see friends who did History degrees working in Marketing, friends who did Business MA's working in Big Data, Music degree works in the Library, etc. I think sometimes we need to admit that unless it is a STEM job they are after it can be more about where you went and that you completed the degree than necessarily what modules you were taught.

I am firmly of the view that children should do a degree in the subject that interests them, although appreciate that not everyone agrees.

I suppose it depends on whether you view studying for a degree an end in its own right for the life experience, or whether it is solely to get a well paid job.

Only if it is an informed decision. If you study a subject you like but fully appreciate what your realistic job prospects will be, sure, go for it, it is an informed decision.

But thinking that money isn't important, while living with your parents and not really understanding how much everything costs nowadays and how certain jobs could grant a middle class life 1-2 generations ago but not now, that is not an informed choice. That is my concern.

I don’t agree. I think the uni you go to and the classification of your degree might matter to potential employers but I wouldn’t say the subject particularly matters, unless it’s vocational. And really it only matters for your first couple of jobs anyway.

I studied economics and ended up in accountancy (have since left for civil service..!) but my colleagues studied maths, philosophy, engineering, English, history, politics. Some didn’t even go to uni! One of my friends did history of art at uni and is now a solicitor. I’d say extra curricular activities and work experience are the most important for young people tbh.

The Department of Education publishes tables of the highest paid graduates five years and ten years after graduation. Top of the list is economists using their degree (so likely to be mostly in financial sector), second on the list with a small gap is doctors. The gap was close enough that if the pension scheme was counted doctors would likely have topped the list at both five and ten years.

In general STEM degrees give access to more shortage areas and therefore better pay. She may change her mind about teaching but if she doesn’t, as a STEM teacher she will see more promotion and job opportunities and its not a badly paid career, especially with the public sector benefits, pension and national salary scales. They may not be worth as much as in 2008 but are still better than they were in the 80s and 90s the there is a good career ladder.

My two youngest are in sixth form doing two stem plus history (to keep options open/show they can write essays).
Dc2 was told by physics teacher that if they go on to do a stem degree (and dont go into teaching) that the majority will out earn him in their late 20s (teacher probably 40 something). The teacher showed them lots of statistics.
So I'd probably say go into alevels trying not to close roots, a stem degree is mostly going to open lots of doors, teaching can be done after a degree so plenty of time to contemplate options, for now look at how to keep those options open.
Id encourage looking at what alevel combinations they want to do and putting them in to a degree finder. So dc2 needs physics and maths for the courses they are most interested in. Dc1 needs biology plus one other science but a few said they preferred biology plus chemistry so at the last minute changed from psychology to chemistry. We found the best way was to work backwards from what degree/job they wanted and work out what yhey needed but at the same time looking at what other options would still be open if they changed theyre mind.
School will probably have some talks going on this term, but one of mine actually got much more from having a 1:1 with a biology teacher about what the teacher had done and what the teacher might have done differently, what the teachers friends did after university. This will depend on the relationship with her teachers but dc1 found it very useful.

People find their own way, you have to let them figure it out. A good friend of mine studied dance at university, she never made it as a dancer but she has a decent career in HR. She says she's no regrets, I believe her because dance is still her great passion in life, and would she have had a more stellar career now if she'd been encouraged to study a more traditional degree? Personally I doubt it.

@C8H10N4O2 Top of the list is economists using their degree (so likely to be mostly in financial sector), second on the list with a small gap is doctors. The gap was close enough that if the pension scheme was counted doctors would likely have topped the list at both five and ten years.

Very interesting, thank you. Do you happen to have the link?

Two important caveats are probably that doctors start earning at an older age because they need to study forever (do they get bursaries for the last years of uni? Not sure), and that there is probably more variance among economics graduates than doctors. Certain jobs at certain top places can pay an econ gradate 2-3x what his peers might make elsewhere, especially in their 30s. Doubt the same applies to doctors, I don't think there are many consultants earning 3x what another consultant makes.

STEM A levels and degree will keep lots of options open including teaching.

Teachers are needed everywhere not just London and a teacher salary will stretch much further in places with a lower cost of living.

@ConBatulations a teacher salary will stretch much further in places with a lower cost of living.

Yes, that's my point. One of my concerns is that she doesn't appreciate that her parents were able to buy a flat in London on teachers' salaries. if she becomes a teacher in London, it will be if not impossible much much much harder for her to do the same. Unless she marries someone who earns multiples of what she does.

see, I don't think it has to be an informed decision with regard to the job opportunities available on graduation.

DS1 is in year 2 of a music degree because that is his passion.

Living independently in a different country is what it is all about for me and the personal growth that goes with it.

Plus the process of studying for a degree in whatever subject you chose is a very valuable in terms of critical thinking skills

Does she definitely want to stay in London? Has she been anywhere else for long periods of time to see whether she enjoys other cities or rural life for example? Studying abroad is also an option as some courses are taught in English. She might have dreams of a cottage with chickens!

I'd always steer teens towards core subject A levels. So if they want to work in media, for example, they are better off taking English, History and a Modern Language than Media Studies. Same if they want to study Law - a Law A level is not as useful as History, English Lit, Latin, French or Maths.

If she likes STEM subjects, that is brilliant. She can do Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry. These would set her up for an enormous number of courses and careers later in life, teaching being just one (badly paid) option among them!

I think its common at 16 to want to do jobs your parents do or jobs you've come across (doctor, teacher etc) and then between 16 to 18 choices often change but can just mean "I love money" (investment bank, law, doctor) rather than having thought through this choice.

At this stage I would choose A levels that interest them though making sure if there's any careers they may be interested in they are not ruled out and same for any degrees. I would do this in a neutral way and refrain from giving any views that aren't balanced. I would point out what different careers can earn though things in their lifetime may be quite different to ours.

I did an economics degree and civil service jobs then where paid about 40% more than now. You also do need to consider pensions though again these can change. There is considerable variation in what people with economics degrees earns - I know of one graduate with a starting salary of £250k from Oxford, others will be starting on £25k. I think economics is a fairly safe choice though financially from a good university. I would go for what she is interested in, but anticipate her likes and desires may alter. Property prices have gone up massively in London, the flat I bought just after graduating is 10 times the price now so not just teachers who will struggle to buy now.

It's important to separate the DEGREE and the JOB FIELD.

Degrees open doors to all sorts of jobs. Some are closely linked - civil engineers clearly need a civil engineering degree, pharmacists need a pharmacy degree etc.

But many jobs don't have a closely related degree. I am senior civil servant with a policy degree. My peers have degrees in business, economics and architecture. There isn't an 'ideal degree' for my job - you need analysis and planning skills, budget management and leadership skills. Lots of degrees would start you off with that.

Some job fields, however, are very poorly paid - creative arts is an example. So, you can do a fine art degree and go into marketing and make a good salary...or you can work in public arts projects, probably on low salaries, short term contracts and not earn a decent living. It isn't the degree that got you there, it's the job field.

It's much less about the degree choice than the field you end up in.

Realistically it's close to impossible to buy property in London without financial help so I don't think the degree makes much difference.

The great virtue of teaching is you can work anywhere but the salaries are on a national scale - the wage isn't bad in a lower cost area.

Doing something JUST for the money sounds great, but not if you dread every single day going to work , or have no interest in the subject matter. Thats no life. Do people have to do it? Of course. But if you have the choice, and going to college is a choice, then i would, and have, advised mine to do what interests them. Life, if we are lucky, is very long, and there are so many changes now in the world, what their working life looks like now, or is in 5 years is not necessarly what it will look like in 25 years. My work did not exist 25 years ago. Our company specialises in systems that didnt exist 25 years ago. There is no exact degree in what we do as a business, So I employed people who have a special interest in it, with some education on some adjacent subjects.

I think college should be something they have an interest in, and think yes, I could work in this field, in some form or fashion. They have to go in to college every day and things like final year can be really intense, even if you love it. I cant imagine if they hated it, how difficult would that be.

With the AI revolution coming unbelievably soon, it is hard to predict the jobs that will exist. Or whether the wage work bargain and late-stage capitalism will survive much longer. Flexibility and resilience will be very important so degrees that are analytical and teach how to think. Or services that are people centric , creative and not worth developing robots for- hairdressing, plumbing(?) dog walking. Might all be a bit of a change to the way we approach things. So maybe do what interests and hope for the best!

Yes, and also there are variations - if you "like maths" you have a range of different options. A PhD in some obscure branch of number theory is not going to pay the same as investment banking out of undergrad and an MBA 4 years later.

I would encourage OP's daughter to consider other analytical careers though - school careers advisers often are unimaginative and just suggest "maths teacher" for kids who like maths, but personally for example I've found it very rewarding to coach junior team members in a very standard corporate career, analogous to when I used to be a secondary school tutor - turns out I love doing analytical work for my job, and having 1-1 coaching relationships, but I wouldn't enjoy a room of 30 kids.

@OneAmberFinch I love doing analytical work for my job, and having 1-1 coaching relationships, but I wouldn't enjoy a room of 30 kids.

That's a good point, and one not every teenager understands.

I like photography, but I would hate being a professional photographer

I like cycling, but I would never be good enough to make a living out of that

A person I know loved biology and chemistry, but found his first job alienating, he described it as a factory assembly line with a white coat on, all mechanic, no thinking, then managed to quit, do a PhD and is now a researcher - he's not paid much but he's doing what he liked. It took him a while to understand that, within the same field, there could be repetitive soul-crashing jobs and more autonomous ones.

@CForCakeWhy don’t you think lawyers make the world a better place? There’s many who would wholly refute that! The framework of law defines a civilised nation. It matters.