Uni choices: what you like vs what pays the rent. What would you tell a teenager?

[CForCake]

A younger relative will choose her A level subjects next year and wants to talk about university choices to me and my partner at a family event in a few weeks.

I am curious about comparing views and experiences on how other people have framed the matter of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

My view is that (almost) any decision can be the right one if it is an informed decision.

So don't study business law or banking thinking you will get the most meaningful, creative, impactful jobs making the world a better place, but at the same time don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job.

From previous conversations, this girl like STEM subjects and liked the idea of becoming a teacher.
My issue with that is that she may not appreciate that 1 or 2 generations ago a couple with two teacher jobs could buy a flat and raise a family in London, while that has become impossible now, without financial help from the family (which she won't get). She always said she's frugal and doesn't care about money, but there is not wanting a Ferrari and there is not being able to afford rent and childcare. It's easy to say you don't care about money when you don't work and everything is paid for by your parents.

If she brings up teaching again, I would mention that she needs to appreciate that being a teacher is financially very challenging in London, and might mean relocating somewhere else with a cheaper cost of living.

At the same time, I would never tell her to consider banking or law or tech just because of the money.

So what is a reasonable balance?

PS Also, it's not like I am deciding for her. She's a smart young woman, she's comparing various opinions and feedbacks, as she should, and she will decide for herself.

For example she had already asked me about a profession I didn't like (no, not teaching, at this point I'm reluctant to say which for fear of getting attacked). My approach was not "that sucks", my approach was: I don't like it because A B and C, but it's subjective, such and such actually does it and seems to like it, so the best thing you can do is ask her, compare why I don't like it, why she does, and try to understand how YOU might feel

@LazySaturdayDoingNothing Why is this younger relative wanting to talk to you about it? You don’t seem to know very much. Is she under the impression that you know more than you do?

And now back to the usual bullshit unnecessary toxic aggressive comments which are turning mumsnet into a kind of reddit for frustrated and bitchy mums...

Love, why are you taking it out on me? Is all good at home? Family and job OK? What is troubling you? Do you need someone to talk to?

I used to teach geology at Uni and was also the school welfare tutor so saw quite a few students that were having a tough time, and I was also quite involved when they were getting jobs after. Geology is a subject that students pick because they like finding out about how the world was made. It is also one of those subjects that students pick because they think that as a science and to do with oil and resources etc it will be a good degree to help them get a well paid job... Anyway - the ones I saw as welfare tutor were almost always the ones that picked the subject because it would be good for their job prospects but weren't that interested in the subject. Uni was pretty tough for some of these. The ones who did well and got top jobs after (generally not as geologists because there aren't that many geologists out there) were those that were really interested in the subject, so worked hard because working hard at something really interesting is easy and fun. They got good degrees and came across enthusiastic and motivated at interviews.
So, my advice to teenagers is that if you are going to spend three or four years devoted to a subject, make sure it is a subject you really like and want to study! If it is, you will do well. If it is only a means to an end, it can be a tough time and if you stuggle, that is not the best preparation for a career. Most graduates do not work directly in their discipline (obviously some careers do depend directly on your degree, but most graduate jobs do not).
Do a subject you really want to and have a great time!
(PS I did a maths degree because I was really interested in the applied maths of astronomy and cosmology, but did not get a job in space)

I agree that unless she has a burning vocation (eg medicine) she should just do a subject that she really loves and is good at - the two tend to go hand in hand.
It's no good doing astro physics if you hate it, even if it does lead to a brilliant potential career.
She also needs to think about the quality of the university (for her subject). So sports science at Loughborough will be more valuable than at "CrapExPoly" university.
Ideally, she goes somewhere that entails moving away from home, because that will give her a taste of real life, more confidence and greater maturity - all invaluable.

She also needs to understand that a first degree is often not enough these days - she will probably need to do a Masters too.
She needs to build her CV from early in her student career, so volunteering and/or a part-time job will make a big difference.

So, lots of factors, not just the subject!

For example she had already asked me about a profession I didn't like (no, not teaching, at this point I'm reluctant to say which for fear of getting attacked). My approach was not "that sucks", my approach was: I don't like it because A B and C, but it's subjective, such and such actually does it and seems to like it, so the best thing you can do is ask her, compare why I don't like it, why she does, and try to understand how YOU might feel

I do agree with this. I was a classroom teacher for several years and changed course to what I do now – classroom teaching was not for me (tho I love my subject and I love tutoring it). But I am careful when people start threads “should I be a teacher” (which they frequently do) not to say “no, don’t do it”. Instead I try to say “it wasn’t for me because xyz so do consider these points. Also IME abc can be an issue for parents so bear that in mind.”

If you know of anyone who knows all the salary ranges for all professions across the country, can you put us in touch?
I assume you're being snarky so back at you - I doubt anyone knows all the salary ranges for all professions, but it's fairly basic knowledge that most public sector jobs like teaching have to publish their salary ranges.

And even after several people told you that you're still asking where to find that information! Someone who doesn't have the wherewithal to google 'Teacher salaries UK' is hardly the sort of independent thinker I'd trust to give me career advice, tbh.

And now back to the usual bullshit unnecessary toxic aggressive comments which are turning mumsnet into a kind of reddit for frustrated and bitchy mums...
Love, why are you taking it out on me? Is all good at home? Family and job OK? What is troubling you? Do you need someone to talk to?

😬 It wasn’t meant that way at all. Try not to see the worst in people.

I just meant, why does this young relative think you would have the knowledge on this as you don’t seem to know that much and she needs to know that. You seem to be trying to get some knowledge from mumsnet so you can present yourself as more knowledgeable, but I think you just need to be honest that you can’t give much advice. This wasn’t meant badly, most of us will be able to advise on our own college and uni experience and career path but it doesn’t make us the right person to talk to about this.

A friends daughter decided she wanted to talk to me and my partner about uni choices because we had been to uni and her own parents hadn’t. She had no idea what she wanted to do but didn’t seem interested in our chosen careers, so other than talk to her about our own uni experience and what we liked about our careers, we couldn’t really advise her. We did point her towards different college websites to look what each A level involved as courses can be different, UCAS, careers advisors, encouraged her to get a well rounded CV with work experience, volunteering, activities etc, but we couldn’t advise on A level choices for her. I gave the same advice to my son and will do so for my daughter too. There are services that do have the knowledge to help young people make the choices right for them.

@LazySaturdayDoingNothing you don't know what I have studied. You don't know what fields I work or may have worked in. You don't know what my partner or friends do, and in what fields I may have indirect knowledge.

Yet you have decided I "don't know much".

I don't try to see the worst in people, but certain comments leave me speechless.

What if I have very extensive experience in one of the fields she may be considering? Had you thought of that?

At this point I'm not gonna say what I do, because the needless toxicity terrifies me.

Wow, some people could fall out with a paper bag. I hope it all comes out anonymously online and the people in their lives don’t suffer.

@somethingnewandexciting That is true but that should also concentrate the mind!

You are asking for advice on mumsnet. The girl deserves proper career advice, not advice based on your mumsnet research, that is all.

@LazySaturdayDoingNothing But you could have done if you had looked at IFS research and many stats regarding HE, including employment rates for degrees. Just using your experiences are very limiting as you say but you can point to other research. Also plenty of data about pay and lack of grad jobs. This illustrates why some dc don’t make the best choices and others do.

Not sure if I missed this in the thread, but has she actually said she wants to live in London, or are you just assuming that? Your first post reads as though nobody would actually choose to live anywhere other than London if they had the choice and the money! One of the good things about teaching as a career is precisely that you can live almost anywhere.

@OttersMayHaveShifted And easily buy a house elsewhere too. However some dc would not be suited and often want to be around friends. Not one of DDs friends has moved away from London. They make London work.

My friend works as a careers advisor in a sixth form college and she would agree with this. So many students have appointments with her and have chosen their A levels based on what their family have done and said, not their own interests or skills. Some of their family went to uni 40 years ago, when uni and job prospects were very different. Pointing her in the direction of a careers advisor is the best advice. You don’t know enough to guide her.

I encouraged my children to start from what they were good at and enjoyed, think openly and critically about possible career paths and earning potential, choose A Levels and degree subjects with multiple potential pathways as their interests are likely to change and develop and unexpected opportunities open up. I engaged with school careers advisers and took their advice into account during conversations on the subject. We visited prospective universities and talked about the importance of not just what you study but where you study it, and of looking deeply at degree contents rather than just trusting the superficial appearance. We discussed the careers and lives of people we know, how they do/don't contribute to broader life happiness, and what the implications for their future are of things like societal changes and AI.

And then they ignored me and went off and did what they wanted.

If she'd come to you and said ' I'm quite interested in the job you do, how can I get into it/ what A Levels should I choose? then that different. You have knowledge and experience in that area and presumably would know what you did and what recruiters are asking for in your field. But from your OP it looks like you want to give her information on things you dont really know anything about.

I’m going to agree that liking your subject and have passion for it at university makes a massive difference.

My daughter studied archeology, notorious for not many jobs and not paying well - you usually have to pay to attend your first digs. But because she loves the subject she worked hard, finished top of her course, did 2 digs with funding, got some paid internships etc…

At year 11 you should just be having lots of conversations, there is so much out there that they don’t know about yet. Choose Alevels with subjects she enjoys and gives lots of options (since STEM is on option Maths, Physics and Chemistry give loads of possibilities). Then visit some unis, look at prospectuses online, be interested and curious.

@OttersMayHaveShifted Your first post reads as though nobody would actually choose to live anywhere other than London if they had the choice and the money!

??? Maybe if you read this in Leeds you wonder why mention London at all, and maybe I should have been clearer: the girl was brought up in London and all her extended family is here. It seems to me perfectly reasonable to look into whether certain jobs let you live in London or not, how easily or not, etc. Which doesn't mean that she must live anywhere specifically, it just means it's an important piece of information to have, because decisions should be as informed as possible.

@RainbowBagels
But from your OP it looks like you want to give her information on things you dont really know anything about.

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. The spirit of the post was not: "hey, I wanna tell this person all about a field in which I have zero experience". It was more of a general post to compare opinions and experience on how some parents have framed the conversation in terms of the importance of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

Part of my concern is that teenagers who have never lived alone might underestimate how expensive everything is nowadays. Her parents managed to buy a house in London's zone 2 and to go on holidays abroad. Someone starting the same careers now would not be able to do that. It doesn't mean she must chase the money, but it's a piece of information to know in the spirit of informed decisions.

What I tried, and probably failed, to convey is that learning that a certain field pays poorly and doesn't have the same career options as another is an important piece of information. Not the only one, of course. And of course none of this means she should study something she hates just because it will give her a job.

@KitchenDancing Pointing her in the direction of a careers advisor is the best advice. You don’t know enough to guide her.

She will speak to a career advisor, but no advisor can be knowledgeable about every field, plus it's very hit or miss. Stories of absolutely useless career advisors abound, even on mumsnet.

Anyway, thank you all for your input. Some useful feedback.

@CForCakeI totally get you. I don’t think 17 year olds do weigh everything up. There’s quite a few factors in deciding upon a career. Some lower paid grads like archaeologist won’t live in London unless they live at home or inherit money or find a much better paid partner. They might also not spend long in the uk and be globally peripatetic. It’s the old problem of knowing what the stakes are before you decide. Loving a degree doesn’t pay the rent, but a slight tweak to it might. So many London grads stay in London and live at home, I think if that’s not available it’s difficult to think what career is best - apart from the obvious ones!

I advise students to engage with them as soon as they arrive. Don’t wait until your final year!

Ha! DD went to the uni careers office during her first year and they said "come back in your final year."

Music degree working in the Library.

Well you can definitely work in a library without a degree.

That’s awful. My son’s uni has been great with careers advice from year 1. They helped find a part time job and volunteer position relevant to his course, gave him great advice regarding a placement year and helped him find a placement etc. I know lots of young adults at uni now or just out of uni and they’ve all had great advice from their uni careers service.

Are you sure that c is for cake?

@somethingnewandexcitingI agree with you. Honesty is needed. For humanities grads it often does matter! Every job has competition now and the degree is the start as well as work experience. Dc have to think what puts them in a position to be interviewed and not discarded.

Really? I work with lots of university careers services and they all encourage engagement from year one.