Uni choices: what you like vs what pays the rent. What would you tell a teenager?

[CForCake]

A younger relative will choose her A level subjects next year and wants to talk about university choices to me and my partner at a family event in a few weeks.

I am curious about comparing views and experiences on how other people have framed the matter of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

My view is that (almost) any decision can be the right one if it is an informed decision.

So don't study business law or banking thinking you will get the most meaningful, creative, impactful jobs making the world a better place, but at the same time don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job.

From previous conversations, this girl like STEM subjects and liked the idea of becoming a teacher.
My issue with that is that she may not appreciate that 1 or 2 generations ago a couple with two teacher jobs could buy a flat and raise a family in London, while that has become impossible now, without financial help from the family (which she won't get). She always said she's frugal and doesn't care about money, but there is not wanting a Ferrari and there is not being able to afford rent and childcare. It's easy to say you don't care about money when you don't work and everything is paid for by your parents.

If she brings up teaching again, I would mention that she needs to appreciate that being a teacher is financially very challenging in London, and might mean relocating somewhere else with a cheaper cost of living.

At the same time, I would never tell her to consider banking or law or tech just because of the money.

So what is a reasonable balance?

Truly.

The Careers Office at her RG told her not to overthink career options in first year and come back in final year. She's studying a humanities plus MFL and wanted to know what careers these could lead to.

I think it's very important to study a subject that will give you a shot at making decent money. Two of my DCs did economics and haven't looked back. We are in the US, though, where you have to pay back your student loans beginning six months after graduation, so you had better be making some money by that point.

If this niece did history, mathematics, and economics, she would be very well placed for choices at university, including but certainly not limited to economics, mathematics/ stats, law, and teaching.

But also - people saying work experience is important need to shout it out really loudly.

Your niece needs to find herself a part time job and never be without one all the way through A levels and university.

My DCs all worked through their teen years and university. References and a cv that shows you are hard working and diligent are vital when looking for that first graduate level job.

Scott Galloway says when it comes to work, we shouldn't tell people to follow their passion but to do what they're good at. Problem is that at 17/18 many young people don't know what they'll be good at in a work situation.

I spoke to dd about the choice she had of pursuing the thing she loved (history) but living hand to mouth as we did - musician family - or choose something she could do which earnt good money and do what she loved in the evenings and weekends. She chose to study history, but did a Masters in Int’l Relations and is now job hunting.

TBH, I think I should have offered to send her on a picture restoration course or something like that, but hindsight’s a marvellous thing, isn’t it?

I’m sure your relative will choose the right thing for them, but they are so changeable at that age that it’s quite possible they won’t be anything like so passionate about it when they’ve finished….. they’ll be a completely different person. Good luck to them, really all the best.

But the niece enjoys STEM subjects, so she is already very well placed for either teaching or a range of other STEM or non-STEM jobs. A levels that include maths and at at least one science would open a lot of doors. Maths and two sciences would give her more STEM opportunities. Maths, a science and an essay subject would give her a different range of opportunities. One of the opportunities for both combinations is teaching, but it is one of many.

Economics is very popular at the moment because young people have got the message that economics grads have relatively high earnings. But, as a result, there is probably an oversupply of economics grads, and they will need to have other things (e.g. a prestigious uni and/or work experience) to make them stand out from the very large crowd.

It is different in the uk as you only start repaying once earning.
I don’t understand how the careers advice department can tell undergrads to come back in their final year. Lots of students do internships before their final year which I would expect the careers advice to be supporting.

That’s different to what I was saying though. Not over thinking your career options in year one isn’t bad advice. There’s more to the careers service than a 1:1 careers interview so hopefully there were lots other activities, events and initiatives for her to get involved in to help get make a decision?

Although, there are a number of RG universities who do think their students can rely on the university’s reputation when it comes to graduate employment so perhaps don’t offer as much support as they should.
My experience is that non RG are better at providing careers and employability support to their students but as the graduate labour market gets more challenging this is starting to change.

That’s different to what I was saying though. Not over thinking your career options in year one isn’t bad advice

But she wasn't "overthinking." She was engaging with the service. Being proactive. They said wait til final year.

Apologies, I wasn’t suggesting she was overthinking I was just saying that there is some merit in engaging in other employability related activity at that stage.
Mot careers services offer so much more than 1:1 interviews. In fact, that’s probably that smallest part of their offer.

If she was told to go away and not engage in any careers related activity until year 3 then that’s appalling. However, I suspect there were specific activities and initiatives aimed at year 1 students that she would have had access to.

However, I suspect there were specific activities and initiatives aimed at year 1 students that she would have had access to.

You can "suspect" all you like but you are wrong. I'm only talking about DD's uni - you seem to think you can speak for every uni in the UK.

I work with most university careers services in the UK so I can speak with some confidence on this.
I don’t know of any university careers services that only offers support to third years.
If that’s happening then they are a complete outlier in the sector.

I think many proactive students go to careers fairs and don’t engage as individuals with the careers service in y1. What they do initially is sift through options and then look for suitable work experience. My DDs RG offered extended guidance by a formal engagement programme (with a certificate!) which was very useful. No idea how many did it though. It certainly gave dc a good grounding in how to apply for jobs and umpteen careers events helped too. It’s a RG targeted by employers though and dd was well informed.

Which is the point I’m making. Careers support goes way beyond individual careers interviews. In fact, that’s often the smallest part of what’s on
offer. It’s pretty much impossible to offer 1:1 guidance to your whole student body so they also organise events, run initiatives (sometimes accredited) and contribute to the curriculum.
Often students don’t recognise it as coming from the careers service because it’s embedded in the course.

The focus on graduate outcomes and value for money means careers is often a strategic KPI. Student outcomes feed into so many metrics which is why I find it hard to believe a university is only offering support to third years. It would be completely at odds with the sector and profession.

Mathematics, geography, and economics might also suit.

I wouldn't encourage a full-on STEM path unless she had firm plans for a STEM career or was happy to do the grad scheme/ finance scrum upon graduation.

Why not? She enjoys STEM and the full-on STEM path is ideal for a solid career in teaching, perfect for STEM-focussed jobs (obviously), but also perfectly good for the sort of "any degree" management jobs that many grads end up in. It doesn't close many doors.

Maths, a science and a language would also be a powerful combo.

why I find it hard to believe a university is only offering support to third years

Ok - you got me - Im lying 🙄

Why so defensive?
I’m not saying you are lying, I’m sure that’s what you were told.

What I’m saying is that it would very usual (pretty much unheard of in fact) for a university to not offer ANY careers support for students in their first or second year. It’s entirely possible that she was told that 1:1 support was only available for third years, unusual but definitely possible. However, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t other support available.

I work closely with university careers services and I teach higher education policy and strategy. My specialist area is employability and that requires me to have an understanding of what is happening across the sector.

Which university is it?

I don’t think anyone thinks you’re lying, they’re just shocked. Which uni was it?

Why so defensive?

I'm not defensive, I'm amused that you won't accept my daughter's experience was different to what happens at your university. You can't know what happens at every university in the UK so why not just believe my daughter?

In contrast, her experience with the Year Abroad team was excellent but I don't go on threads where posters are complaining about their DC's unsatisfactory experiences and insist that they're wrong or their DC weren't accessing the support properly.

Some services and departments are just not very good.

Actually I do have an insight into what is taking place at pretty much every university careers services in the UK. It’s literally my job! I’m not just talking about my university.

One of the things I do is train staff working in university careers services across the UK as well as other countries. They write about what happens in their university. In the 10 years I’ve been involved in this role I have NEVER come across a university that only offers careers support to their third year students. In fact, the trend is the complete opposite as all research shows that there are huge benefits of starting earlier. It would be the equivalent to universities not letting first and seconds years use the library!

As well as working with staff in university careers services I research and write on the topic and completed a PhD in this area. This involves speaking to staff working across different universities. I’ve spoken to hundreds of staff during my career.

I’m not saying she is lying but what I am saying is one of two things is happening. Either her university is a complete outlier or the careers support is being offered in a different way. It is entirely possible that she just doesn’t recognise it as careers support as it’s not badged up that way. This is really, really common.
If you tell me what university she is studying at I can probably tell you about the careers support they offer.

On all the open days I have been to with my DS they have all said that they provide careers support from year 1. If that's not being offered, then that needs to be taken up with the University I think. Year 3 is far too late.

@TearsforBeers I am musing if there’s anything that might be more useful on y3 than taking up resources on y1? Y1 might be very early to hone a cv for example - not much to put on it? However there’s so much else available, I’m struggling to see why dc didn’t avail themselves of the other careers services.

It might be the case that the university only offers 1:1 careers support in year 3. It would be unusual but there are different types of careers interviews - full guidance interviews where they are exploring career ideas and the more ‘quick query’ type which looks at CVs and applications. Both are very resource intensive and just can’t be offered to all students.

That’s why they run events which allow them to offer support scale. Some of the support will be tailored to specific year groups but I have genuinely never come across a university that doesn’t offer some form of careers snd employability support from day 1!

My DD was planning on taking STEM subjects at A-level but had a last minute change of heart. Ended up going to Art School for her degree. Loved the course, loved the city she studied in, now working in a well-paid job for someone fresh out of uni.
The world is very uncertain at the moment, and seems like life is too short to waste years studying and working in areas you are not passionate about.