Uni choices: what you like vs what pays the rent. What would you tell a teenager?

[CForCake]

A younger relative will choose her A level subjects next year and wants to talk about university choices to me and my partner at a family event in a few weeks.

I am curious about comparing views and experiences on how other people have framed the matter of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

My view is that (almost) any decision can be the right one if it is an informed decision.

So don't study business law or banking thinking you will get the most meaningful, creative, impactful jobs making the world a better place, but at the same time don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job.

From previous conversations, this girl like STEM subjects and liked the idea of becoming a teacher.
My issue with that is that she may not appreciate that 1 or 2 generations ago a couple with two teacher jobs could buy a flat and raise a family in London, while that has become impossible now, without financial help from the family (which she won't get). She always said she's frugal and doesn't care about money, but there is not wanting a Ferrari and there is not being able to afford rent and childcare. It's easy to say you don't care about money when you don't work and everything is paid for by your parents.

If she brings up teaching again, I would mention that she needs to appreciate that being a teacher is financially very challenging in London, and might mean relocating somewhere else with a cheaper cost of living.

At the same time, I would never tell her to consider banking or law or tech just because of the money.

So what is a reasonable balance?

@Knittedanimal I have explained why I find that line of reasoning flawed. We are welcome to agree to disagree.

What other advice would I have refused to take on board? I have thanked the posters who clarified quite a few points on teaching careers which weren't clear to me.

I appreciate the advice about the gap year, but simply asked how unis feel about that (which doesn't mean not taking it on board)

Why do people need to be toxic and needlessly aggressive even when discussing something banal and relatively uncontroversial?

I don't think it was necessary to snidely infer i was talking bollocks by referencing advice given by a highly respected university.
I don't feel my response was toxic.

With A levels I think you need a combo of what your good at so decent grades in old school minimum of B ideally A at gcse combined with what interest.

My biggest regret was being pushed into stem a levels by school which I did have good grades in but wasnt the passion that I had for history and art. I often wonder if id stuck to my original choice of biology, history, art and psychology A levels what id be doing now

Teachers may get access to keyworker rental flats etc
And have a skill to take anywhere

Key worker accommodation https://share.google/knDFz0W5sKlF2LMcL

@CForCake maybe the best advice you could give would be to refer her to Mumsnet, then she could ask her own questions. 🙂

My view is that people should follow what interests them in life, understanding that some careers pay better than others. There are many graduate programmes open to anyone with a good degree in any subject. Choice of subject is important if you have a career direction in mind but a university degree is more than a means to an end.

I would couple this with some clear financial advice-I wish someone had shown me how compound interest worked at 18!

Nowadays it is unusual for the degree you study to be your career unless you do something vocational (medicine, nursing, allied health, policing, engineering etc) and even then, plenty of medicine graduates go into different careers.

You can do the history degree your heart is telling you you want to do and then do a law conversion course, a PGCE, or a graduate scheme like the civil service fast track.

I would say that the best advice you can give a young person deciding on this is that 3 years is a long time to be struggling to enjoy the actual course content while at uni. So don't choose economics because you want to earn a tonne of money. Do it because you love it. And even if the subject you love doesn't automatically confer a brilliant salary it doesn't mean that you're stuck doing it forever, it just might mean an additional qualification afterwards, or a career not related to that subject you loved.

If she tells you something she is interested in (eg teaching) the worst thing you could do is put her off it. She may end up in a career to please others and be miserable. At this stage there are so many variables and she will probably change her mind. The best thing she can tell her is to do what she enjoys, as there’s no guarantee of good/bad incomes anyway. (I earnt more in teaching than my lawyer friend did). I’ve now moved on from teaching into something higher paid, but the teaching gave me great experience. Please just encourage her current dreams and don’t be negative about her choices.

@AlleycatMarie Helping her understand the pros and cons, which include realistic salary expectations, is NOT putting her off - it is helping her make an informed decision.

The best thing she can tell her is to do what she enjoys, as there’s no guarantee of good/bad incomes anyway. (I earnt more in teaching than my lawyer friend did).

On this I disagree. Doing what she enjoys, without even looking into realistic salary expectations, means making uninformed, potentially irresponsible decisions. Yes, there is huge uncertainty ahead, but this is not an excuse to say that media or gender studies and medicine are all the same because the future is uncertain, Which again, doesn't mean don't do media or gender studies, it means do that with your eyes open.

I think making informed decisions remains crucial. If you feel differently, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Note that I have never said nor implied that she must earn loads, that she must live in London, that she must do or not do certain jobs.
I would simply want her to make an informed decision, that's all.

Some posters have completely misunderstood my points, and talk as if I wanted her to be a corporate lawyer or banker or trader buying a house in South Kensington. Absolutely not!

Honestly do a degree you think you will enjoy and do well at. Jobs will come later.

While I get your point OP I do think you need to allow her to enjoy a 3 year course which will likely put her into debt for life.

If she does Nuclear Fission but would have been happier with Psychology because she is a people person, you aren't doing her any favours making her miserable and potentially resentful. Obviously if her interests really are "gender studies" she can find a course with something that ventures into the sociological side, such as Psychology for example, where she can segue off into that when they discuss psycho-social aspects. You don't have to knobble her passions completely.

You just need to be very mindful of how you discuss this with her because it has the potential to sound like you’re trying to put her off a particular route. I realise that’s not your intention but like it or not, that’s often how it’s interpreted by young people.
As a careers adviser I’m a huge advocate of people making informed decisions but I have to be very careful to make sure I’m not coming across as telling a young person they can’t or shouldn’t do something.

Yes I very much agree with this.

I realise you are not explicitly saying "don't be a teacher" etc but that's kind of how it is coming across to posters here so it may seem that way to the YP.

For example I note that in your OP @CForCake you say don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job – but in fact I know a very highly paid (like, six figures) former NHS colleague who did study media, at a low-key uni too. Now this person is very driven, extremely efficient and works very hard. And ofc I am sure there are graduates in media working in Starbucks (not that there's anything wrong with that – but I agree it's not a high-paying role).

But I just wanted to show that while of course a degree in media is not going to lead to a job as a dentist, it may well be just as valid in terms of roles that simply want a degree. If it interests and engages the YP they will do better – a first in Eng lit that was really relished and enjoyed, extending soft skills, has got to be better than a third in maths that saw the YP miserable and wishing they had chosen something else.

But graduate-level jobs simply don't come later for many people, so it makes sense to optimise by taking a course you will enjoy and potentially lead to a good career. They don't have to do that career - they can still apply for related or "any degree" jobs.

@CForCake one bit of insight that might be worth sharing - my DC recently graduated from a London uni that has nearly 50% international students, and now has lots of friends from around the world. This is good for travel, as he has lots of visit invitations. But there are other fringe benefits. Some of them are from wealthy, entrepreneurial families, and are starting their own businesses backed by family money and contacts. They are employing their friends from uni for, in some cases, six figure salaries (mainly computing grads). So the old adage remains true - it's not always what you know that counts, but who you know. Networking will always be advantageous.

(p.s. My DS is not being employed by one of these start-ups, as he is following a different path, but some of his friends are)

@somethingnewandexciting For life? Is 40 years for life? My DD did MFLs and paid it off after 8 years. Grads don’t all get poorly paid roles!

I guess it also depends how much you have to take out, as in what your parents earn. If they are high earners you have less debt to repay.

I think she sounds like a bright girl who wants to explore her options. If that is the case, she will have engaged in what is going on around her,the news, social media etc. If that's the case, surely telling her that teachers don't earn as much as investment bankers (especially as a young person growing up in London) is a bit of a waste of time? My 14 year old knows this. He is aware of things like the cost of living and property prices etc. Surely this girl would be able to work out these things for herself? Having her auntie say 'well if you become a teacher you may not be able to afford to live in London' (something that isn't even true) is not going to be helpful at all to a YP. If she's interested in STEM really the only advice she needs to be given is to do A Levels she enjoys and is good at, work as hard as she can to get as good a grades as she can, then make a decision based on that. Whatever she does at A Level, and even what she does as a degree will then open her up to a career in teaching or AI or finance or whatever closer to the time she will be doing this-in 7 years time, with more relevant and targeted careers advice . She doesn't need advice from well meaning relatives over and above that. Especially to tell her something that is obvious (that some jobs pay more than others) especially when those high paying jobs often don't depend on the A Levels or degree that you do, but on other things like grades achieved, soft skills, work experience etc.

If you don’t know what you want to do, take something relatively generally that’s not limiting you and can be built on. I didn’t a clue what to go on to do - took a degree in Russian literature. Got to spend time over there, and generally broaden my horizons. Ended up in HR (which I love) as I built on my degree with post-grad study, etc. It’s so easy these days to do studying a bit later if you are unsure when younger.

@RainbowBagels you could tell her that if she aims to teaches a shortage subject she may be eligible for generous bursaries and scholarships, especially if teaching in certain geographical locations.

She is also likely to progress quickly - the school I know well has lost very early career teachers to head of department jobs, and (budget permitting) tries to retain the most difficult to replace teachers by giving them more responsibility early in their career (so they get additional pay via a 'TLR'). The private sector will also pay a market supplement for some subjects (e.g. maths, computing, science, languages)

However, the reason those subjects are most sought after is because those graduates are also in high demand from other employers. They are therefore win-win subjects.

Say she does a stem degree then a pgce. The average newly qualified teacher only lasts 5 years before quitting the profession. That would mean she’s in a new career before she’s 30. Say 5 years to establish herself and rise to middle management; then start to have kids around 35.

Why does she have to live in London? Perhaps she doesn’t want to.

My dd is heading for a stem degree, she is very bright, motivated, unusually hard-working with bags of confidence and very articulate. She has always and only wanted to be a teacher so she’s been a volunteer instructor at her martial arts club and helping at the local watersports centre in the summer.

I have always said to her an education should help you keep doors open; a good quality stem degree is something you can fall back on if teaching doesn’t work out. So dd is pushing hard so she’ll have mostly 8s at gcse and a clutch of 9s, and has reconciled to stem A levels although I know she’ll miss history.

I definitely wouldn’t put someone off teaching at age 17. There’s plenty of time to change track.

@clary in fact I know a very highly paid (like, six figures) former NHS colleague who did study media, at a low-key uni too. Now this person is very driven, extremely efficient and works very hard. And ofc I am sure there are graduates in media working in Starbucks

But that's the thing: single data points are completely, totally and utterly meaningless.

Saying "I know a person who" means absolutely nothing. What matters is how representative or not that is.

I know a person who studied theology and a non-Russell group university and now works in finance with about 30 people reporting to him. What does it mean? Nothing. It doesn't mean that studying theology at a second-tier uni is likely to open many doors in finance. It doesn't mean that studying theology now would get her the same job. It doesn't even mean that theology graduates can do anything, because that data point doesn't tell us what others have done.

If instead one starts looking at bigger samples, and starts looking at what dozens or hundreds of theology graduates do 5 or 10 years after graduation, now that starts painting a picture.

It's a bit like saying that uni is irrelevant because many billionnaires are university drop outs.

I never said you did say she has to work in London/earn loads etc.

If several posters (including me) have misunderstood your intentions in helping her make an informed decision then maybe it was the way your initial post was written.

On the rest, well, as you say, we will agree to disagree!!

I wish her the best with whichever route she chooses :-)

@CForCake actually I agree about data points, which is why I hate it when famous people on GCSE results day post "I failed all my GCSEs and now I do xyz so it doesn't matter if you failed yours). I mean GCSE results do matter, tho ofc if you have done less well than you hoped, it’s not the end of the world.

But your OP certainly suggested you can't do well ££ wise with x or y degree. And for sure you can. Yes, if you want to be a doctor or a dentist or an engineer you need a specific degree. But I truly believe studying a degree that engages you and leads your learning on will always be valuable, even if that degree is in gender studies. If a high-paying role is important to you (it isn't the most important thing to a lot of people tbf) then you will make it work. That's all I meant really.

Looking at careers of people who did xyz degree is interesting and does indeed paint a picture. But I think if you are advising an individual person, who it seems looks up to you in terms of advice sought, then you should be clear that their future is to some extent theirs to create. I don't like the “you can do anything” narrative – most 9yo footy players will not become professional – but equally I don’t like the view that someone must follow a certain educational path (maths A level not drama, engineering degree not media) in order to succeed.

Why is this younger relative wanting to talk to you about it? You don’t seem to know very much. Is she under the impression that you know more than you do?