Uni choices: what you like vs what pays the rent. What would you tell a teenager?

[CForCake]

A younger relative will choose her A level subjects next year and wants to talk about university choices to me and my partner at a family event in a few weeks.

I am curious about comparing views and experiences on how other people have framed the matter of studying what you like vs what pays the rent.

My view is that (almost) any decision can be the right one if it is an informed decision.

So don't study business law or banking thinking you will get the most meaningful, creative, impactful jobs making the world a better place, but at the same time don't study gender or media studies thinking that you will get a high-paying job.

From previous conversations, this girl like STEM subjects and liked the idea of becoming a teacher.
My issue with that is that she may not appreciate that 1 or 2 generations ago a couple with two teacher jobs could buy a flat and raise a family in London, while that has become impossible now, without financial help from the family (which she won't get). She always said she's frugal and doesn't care about money, but there is not wanting a Ferrari and there is not being able to afford rent and childcare. It's easy to say you don't care about money when you don't work and everything is paid for by your parents.

If she brings up teaching again, I would mention that she needs to appreciate that being a teacher is financially very challenging in London, and might mean relocating somewhere else with a cheaper cost of living.

At the same time, I would never tell her to consider banking or law or tech just because of the money.

So what is a reasonable balance?

Look up Ikigai which could give a helpful framework for choosing a career but if it's a long way off if she's only year 11 and is planning to go to university.

Some science degree courses, Birmingham is one but assume others do the same, offer a final year module called e.g. Teaching Physics in Schools. May be better than a year out.

She should do a degree in a subject she genuinely enjoys and is interested and motivated to study, at the highest prestige level of university that will accept her.

Most high paying careers will recruit from any academically rigorous subject because all they want is evidence that you can learn a high volume of material and perform at the highest academic standards. They don't need you to already know the things that are needed for that career, you learn them on the job as you work towards your professional qualifications. Your degree showcases your capacity for learning and you get the best outcome studying something you love. The people who are in the top ranks of earners in a multitude of career paths will have bachelor level degrees in all sorts of subjects - history, languages, sciences, maths, PPE etc.

But also you don't need to be in the top ranks of high earners to be happy. She should focus on finding out what motivates her to work hard and perform at her best and what gives her the most personal satisfaction and enjoyment. The next step is to find a way to have a career getting paid to do that.

Teaching can lead to other jobs. Also she could get a Bsc go into teaching and study something else at a later stage. Why do you need to interfere?

I encouraged my children to study what they loved, working on the theory that if it didn't work out they would have something interesting to think about while working on the checkout in Asda (other supermarkets are available).

Luckily both got jobs in their field and although they are unlikely to be wealthy they have jobs they enjoy. An archaeologist and a graphic designer if you're interested.

It’s pretty impossible for our generation to pontificate and advise our young people anyway with the huge spectre of AI coming round the corner.

I agree with this. On MN so many posters children seem to be doing STEM that I wonder where all the jobs for them are. We don't even have enough jobs for our doctors and nurses.

My DH works for a large multinational engineering company based in the US and they are freezing graduate recruitment. Even quite high up managers are expected to do all their own admin and the future plan is to shift lower grade jobs over to India but base their managers in the UK. Everyone knows it will be a shitshow but that's what the American bosses are ordering. DH says that his company are actually behind the curve with this.

My DD has said she wants to be a teacher for years, I used to put her off because all the (primary) teachers I knew hated it and left but actually now I think maybe becoming a secondary language teacher might be a sensible option.

Same sweet with law firms and engineering firms friends work in 😳.

I sound cynical but all these thread with parents obsessing and fussing about private v state schools and getting into RG universities what is the plan if there no bloody jobs?! Deckchair stacking and the Titanic springs to mind.

I think teaching is a very sensible career move right now

TheaBrandt1 I got so much shit on here during all the discussions about VAT on school fees because I said basically that I'd rather my DD went to state school and we'd save the money for a house deposit for her. Loads of people said if we could afford it, it was our DUTY to go private.

I can't control whether or not she gets a well paid job after her degree but I can help her not to have to struggle with huge rents.

I dont get this preoccupation with STEM subjects and assumption they are automatic money spinners. There are loads of scientists in full time lab jobs earning far less than teachers - and without the pension and annual leave.

Same with computer science type jobs -yes there are some people who have made fortunes but many others whose programming type jobs have been almost completely taken by AI.

6 years from qualifying a teacher will be on £46k even with no extra roles or responsibilities, and that's graduating now - in another 4 years (so by the time she graduates) that will be up to over £50k. I dont understand how you can think a couple both earning that would struggle to live, nor why youve focused on London. There is a whole world outside London, but even inside £100k is completely affordable. Not to mention there are lots of opportunities to progress -she could easily be on £70k before she's 30 if she goes for head of department.

Not really sure if you're the best person to talk to her - sounds like your views are based on a lot of vague assumptions rather than actual figures. Why not look for the "type" of job YOU think she could do, and then research the pay, hours, additional benefits (pension etc), job security, how many jobs there actually are, what the projection is for 5/10 years etc. You might be surprised at how low the overall package for "STEM" jobs are.

I'm going to have this conversation with my elsdest in a few years and wondering the same.

I think personally I would start asking her what she wants out of going to University - I think that makes them really think about why they are going and what they want out of it (and if indeed it's the right time or if they should go at all). People go for all sorts of reasons, and there might be other / better alternatives, or it might focus thoughts on the right course.

I also think you could flip it around and say what sort of lifestyle would you want in 5 years after graduating - of course no one truly knows at this age but again it gets them thinking and can then lead into rent costs / mortgages / where to live / living at home etc.

I have no experience of this, but I've read on a lot of threads how much people have benefitted from taking a year out and working, both in terms of being financially better off but also a but more sure of what they want to do and study, so again I might talk about that as an option.

It's very hard to advise, so I think it's as much about getting about of them what is important and going from there. Good luck!

Same sweetpea. Plus putting them into a cosseted environment won’t necessarily do them many favours in the long run. It’s going to be tough for this generation - they will need to be flexible smart and fleet footed and we will need to give them as much money as we can to help and not spend it on a school with a better sports team and nicer teachers if the state option is basically fine.

A few key bits for me;

1. You need to be keen enough on what you’re studying to be properly self motivated to study it. University courses rely heavily on independent study these days.
2. Contact hours really matter for someone people. If that’s potentially her, check them.
3. Teach First and Graduate teacher training both exist. If teaching is a maybe then go into it through one of those routes. They're equally well recognised in teaching aA teaching undergrads are, whereas for other careers tye teaching degree doesn’t always have the same impact.

Differentiate between hobby and career. I coach, i mentor, I’ve been a youth leader. I’d be none of those as my full time job. Im glad that engineering is what pays my bills.

This is what I was going to say. My middle aged ideas of what degrees might lead to a well paid job are likely to be hopelessly outdated soon. If you study something you love you might not make lots of money. But you might study something you hate and be poor too - the worst of both worlds.

Teachers salaries vary enormously depending on whether they are private or state and whether they are part of an academy chain. Location can also matter.
Also, the big money in teaching is in the academy chain management. Those jobs are not common.
To put it into perspective, the maximum amount a classroom teacher can earn ( with no extra responsibilities and 10 years + experience can be eclipsed within 2 years in some STEM based careers.
Teaching is not redundant-proof as some other posters have said. My school went through 3 rounds of redundancy in 10 years ( outside London) including some losses in STEM subjects. Unqualified, young teachers are also cheap so it can be difficult for teachers to move jobs once they get a bit expensive.
Overall I wood say STEM a levels have a lot of currency, but the job market is tough for all graduates at the moment and teaching is not the safe option it once was

They should do something they’re interested in and passionate about. They have a lifetime to worry about work and bills.

that’s what I said to mine - do something you love and enjoy the experience. Delay the rat race as long as you can. They’ve worked in some capacity since they were 16. They have a decent CV for when the finish their MSc next year. For their MSc, we also included employment prospects in the discussions. It’s worked for them. They loved their uni experience and what they studied and now love the MSc they’re doing. If we could afford it, they’d have opted to do a PhD straight after but that’s not an option

I'm a firm believer in encouraging children to be interested in the sort of subjects that will give them a good career. Best of both worlds!

@CForCake you said in your op that your relative wants advice about university choices, but you seem to be wanting to give her careers advice, which isn't the same thing.

@MadMadaMim And will they have the luxury of living at home after qualifications? Passion about a subject is very questionable too. Most dc cannot make up their minds about A level choices half the time. Sciences also have better employment prospects. Would your dc be in the same position if their “passion” had been drama? Probably not. Passion only takes you so far.

Exam marking by AI is being trialled very successfully.

You also need to encourage them to think bout where they study. Hall fees in London can be double those of northern universities unless they are happy to stay at home?

@NeverHaveIEvery They don’t have to be double. Every uni has a range of hall prices but the loan is more in London to compensate. However if you were looking at LSE vs some northern unis, your money would be well spent in London.

@DancefloorAcrobatics Best approach would be to encourage her to do a gap year- no, not the travelling or constant party type but working in an environment that she's considering.

I seem to remember that some unis don't like the concept of a gap year - is that still the case?

@rubbishd you said in your op that your relative wants advice about university choices, but you seem to be wanting to give her careers advice, which isn't the same thing.

Well, it's all linked, to an extent. I am not advising a pensioner who wants to study something they like but won't have to worry about paying the rent. Potential careers are a factor in deciding what to study

@latetothefisting 6 years from qualifying a teacher will be on £46k even with no extra roles or responsibilities, and that's graduating now - in another 4 years (so by the time she graduates) that will be up to over £50k. I dont understand how you can think a couple both earning that would struggle to live, nor why youve focused on London.

I thought salaries were lower. I have thanked the posters who clarified this important point. I am not "focusing" on London, but the girl in question grew up in London, so it's a reasonable aspect to consider

Not really sure if you're the best person to talk to her - sounds like your views are based on a lot of vague assumptions rather than actual figures

If you know of anyone who knows all the salary ranges for all professions across the country, can you put us in touch?

. You might be surprised at how low the overall package for "STEM" jobs are.

I know that very well. In fact, I have never said nor implied that all STEM graduates earn loads. I specifically made the examples of some high-stress, high-pay professions, like investment banking or corporate law in a top firm (certainly not STEM).

I went to an admissions lecture from the English faculty at Cambridge yesterday. Over half of CEOs globally studied an arts/humanities degree and salaries are on average similar.
I'm in the midst of guiding both of my dds. The eldest is flying with literature and maths at a level and is struggling to choose which path to follow. It must always come down to finding the thing you love, otherwise, really, what's the point?

Over half of CEOs globally studied an arts/humanities degree and salaries are on average similar.

Be careful inferring too much from this. Quite a few billionaires are college drop outs. This doesn't mean dropping out of college will necessarily boost your career.

HP, youtube, Alibaba have all had CEOs with humanities degrees. This doesn't mean that humanities and STEM graduates in their organisations had comparable chances.

Dropping in to randomly suggest looking at courses that could lead to being a chartered surveyor :) something like real estate management or property planning and development. There’s a huge range of property/construction jobs that a course like this could unlock access to. It’s surprisingly interesting and rewarding!

I'm happy with the advice from Cambridge University thanks.
Oddly, you don't seem to want to take on board any advice here, despite asking for it...