Uni advice for potential barrister

[HecticHettie]

School and websites have given a lot of what I have now come to believe may be duff advice so I hope Mumsnet can help. My highly academic daughter wants to be a barrister and numerous well-meaning friends have told her to study another subject first then convert to law. However, when we went to uni open days (Oxford, Cambridge, King’s and Durham) we were explicitly told that if you want to be a high-flying barrister (not solicitor), studying law at undergraduate is pretty much essential if you want to keep all specialisms open. Apparently you can be a barrister by converting later but are restricted to family law etc (less
legal heavy). I am so confused as seen so many posts and people seem to confuse advice for barristers and solicitors. I would be grateful to hear from barrister parents only

It’s all on chambers websites. They put on cvs of barristers or look on linkedIn. It’s all there universities attended, prizes won.
It’s probably like being an actor - they are self employed and tout their achievements to get work.

By “tout” I assume you mean “bring their successes to the attention of interested and discerning readers, in the public interest”?

(Yeah, ‘tout’ is right.)

Don’t know stats but outside magic circle and very large regional/govt legal it’s very rare to have postgraduate diploma and sqe funded.
You don’t even need a law degree or conversion to be a solicitor now although in reality everyone still does. You don’t need a training contract you can piece a portfolio together from paralegal and volunteer work.
Market has really changed. Law degree and working as a paralegal while qualifying is very common.
The 3 in my team wanting to qualify will all do it differently. One had a law degree and has done it via employer funded solicitor apprenticeship. One with law degree self funded SQE 1 and prepped using an online barbri course, due to sit SQE2 next year - all self funded. The exam fees alone for SQE1 and 2 are over £5000. Last one has law degree and lpc and is wanting a tc (eligible under transition) All have first class law degrees but from universities that would make mumsneters shudder.

Yes the big City money is where full funding is. Even so, the success rate among the DCs' friends at Oxford was strikingly high - certainly compared to the idea that TCs are hard to come by. Not all reading Law either - and just off the top of my head I can think of several who applied, got offers (Linklaters and Slaughter&May were two of those for sure) then said thank you but no thank you. I'm aware that there's a level of diversity of unis represented at the Magic Circle firms but it would be quite interesting to know the stats for the success rates from individual unis. The London Bar seems to be very significantly more Oxbridge heavy even than the top commercial law firms.

This is 5 years old but not been updated since.
https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

I would not take that advice. The universities are right. If she wants to be a lawyer, study law and get a deeper grounding in it.

The only barristers who make a pittance and barely cover costs (they are self employed) are criminal barristers at the very junior end. Going to the CPS would pay more.

It was also a decision taken by DD that she would think very hard about training as a barrister at all if she did not get a very decent scholarship or two. It’s a very expensive course and we are realists! She’s not Oxbridge and didn’t have a law degree. Has other great strengths though which came to the fore. It’s like everything else in life, play to your strengths.

Your choice of language is not helpful to conversation about the bar @TizerorFizz I’ve just checked and the average income for junior criminal barristers in the early years is £42,000. Hardly a ‘pittance.’

My own DD wouldn't have had to do much thinking if she hadn't got a very generous scholarship. Not only because the cost would have been prohibitive but because she viewed getting a good scholarship as a test of her ability. The scholarships she did get were therefore key on more than one front.

ThatllBeTheDay, I think about 60% doing the old LPC course (i.e graduates) did not have a training contract. It will be similar on the SQE course- in fact probably fewer due to the complex new system and people from abroad having a go at the new course. Even if you take Oxbridge graduates only it is not the case that they will all manage to obtain a TC - we some who do not have one yet - so that is just my personal knowledge though not statistics. I suspect 2024 is very competitive for various reasons and law firms are trying to be fair. I don't think it is any secret on here that my twins qualified this year having been my firm (one person firm) trainee solicitors. They both did obtain in house solicitor jobs right away so in a sense it did work to get them qualified but we know full well having trained at your mother's firm is of course not a good look. They have pretty good exam results, university etc but not Oxbridge.

Your daughter should do a degree she is passionate about from a top university, one she will likely get at least a 2:1 in (although it seems like they hand out 2:1s these days so maybe a First).

Doing a law degree is probably one of my biggest regrets, although my career has been legally based. It is limiting and much harder work throughout the 3 years, especially the first year, than most other degrees so you tend to get isolated with other lawyers. There’s not many careers you can use law for so if you want to change later in life you can be a bit stuck.

Also, there’s a disproportionate number of tossers on a law degree.

About half the barristers I know read history or theology at Oxbridge/Durham etc.

Many at the junior end earn less per hour than minimum wage after costs.

£42k sounds like a reasonable income but if that is before costs, they will be taking home a lot less. If they are in a London set they could be paying £20k+ in chambers rent and clerking fees. Then they will have their practising certificate, insurance, books, subscriptions to legal libraries, travel to courts, etc coming out of that headline number. Life at the junior bar can be tough.

i have a full understanding of how the junior end of the bar work @eurochick. It is still substantially more than a ‘pittance.’

Also very interested to hear where your figure of £20,000+ for rent ‘and clerks fees’ come from? I think a percentage of about 20% is what most people are working with, which for an income of £42k would be just over £8k.

@Feelingathomenow Horses for courses, I loved my law degree and sitting in all the uni open day talks for law with dc there were so many modules I’d have loved to do. My dc opted for a law with another subject degree and there’s a real difference between the type of people in the two subjects.
Law is a well regarded academic degree so ideal for many careers. Not just if want to qualify.

Yes, well there was certainly a very different type of person doing law to other courses. I guess I just preferred the type of people on the other courses😀.

Absolutely horses for courses. Yes you can treat law as just another degree and do random professions but then why do law if there’s something else you would rather do?

Yes people seem to be impressed if you have a law degree. But apart from the amount of work I don’t think it’s any more intellectually or academically challenging than say history or theology.

in fact I regret law so much I’m going to go back to uni to do history when I retire

I think it is a bit of a generalisation to say a certain sort of person does an LLB. Those of us on this thread who did an LLB will be very different from each other. It can be harder to get a place on an LLB than other courses but that should not put people off. I really enjoyed mine and even today use things I was taught on it. I was even taught by Baroness Hale on my degree. The chance to study law over 3 years rather than just cram in the essentials in a law conversion is certainly worth taking if you can.

Experience.

You have experience of chambers taking nearly half of junior tenants fees? Interesting.

@ThatllBeTheDay.. Yes but we don't know it's "limp" they are supposed to be the experts.
It's only otherwise research that shoes that not to be the case.

Do any chambers do work experience?
I was looking for my daughter today and every single one said it was only for under privilege children. Brilliant they do that but it's can't see how to get my dd who certainly isn't privaledge in

@Jukeboxjive lots offer mini pupillage, she would need to apply (not mum). Not sure where based but Lincoln House Chambers Manchester welcomes applications from anyone, it's via an application form.

@Investinmyself thanks and a mini pullover would be suitable for a year 12?