Uni advice for potential barrister

[HecticHettie]

School and websites have given a lot of what I have now come to believe may be duff advice so I hope Mumsnet can help. My highly academic daughter wants to be a barrister and numerous well-meaning friends have told her to study another subject first then convert to law. However, when we went to uni open days (Oxford, Cambridge, King’s and Durham) we were explicitly told that if you want to be a high-flying barrister (not solicitor), studying law at undergraduate is pretty much essential if you want to keep all specialisms open. Apparently you can be a barrister by converting later but are restricted to family law etc (less
legal heavy). I am so confused as seen so many posts and people seem to confuse advice for barristers and solicitors. I would be grateful to hear from barrister parents only

I understand that. I’m a barrister.

My point was made in the context of a thread titled “Uni advice for potential barrister”.

There’s plenty that could be said about getting on in the profession, but the request was narrow.

This is exactly why I said I agree with the advice. Get the very best degree you can from the very best university. However not doing so isn’t necessarily fatal to a very successful career at the bar, contrary to the impression given by some people on here.

There is no doubt that for those who want to be a solicitor or barrister if you don't do a law degree first you are very likely to have to do a law conversion year. The UK loans system is that you may obtain one post grad loan so for loads of people this is a massive sticking point issue they do not consider when people breezily talk about doing a law conversion after. UIt is the same for solicitors - most do not obtain a law firm to fund their law conversion and SQE year. So using your one chance at a masters loan on a law conversion means you do not have any loan for the bar course/SQE year.

That was not a problem for those of my children for whom I paid as I paid for both years, but it is a problem for those needing loans.
For solicitors you can sometimes even work out their class/type of school and background these days if you look at their profiles on linked in of trainees - the better off ones often do a degree other than law first and those who don't are probably less well odd. I haven;t done a scientific study of that but it is notable particularly since the post grade SFE masters loan came out.

This a very important message and harks to my earlier post - schools can be efficient at turning sixth form students into undergraduates but rarely have much insight into the route towards specific careers or the costs involved.

Anecdotally, it is not unusual to have worked for a couple of years doing unrelated work in between an undergraduate degree and starting as a pupil barrister. Those I know of in that category did have firsts from Oxbridge though and are obviously talented enough to be doing very well after their first few years as a barrister.

I’m a solicitor with a law degree and it also irritates me when the ‘just do a conversion’ is banded around. Unless you are in circles where parents can fund it really needs thinking about. I bet if you asked those suggesting none law how would she fund the fees and living costs of conversion they wouldn’t have any idea. A conversion is just the core basics too, none of the optional modules. I sat through various law talks with dc last year and there’s some amazing options offered these days.

when I was choosing my career I had no idea you could convert to law and I wouldn’t have had the money to do it. It was expensive enough to qualify.

There are scholarships for the GDL. I’m sure posters don’t know about them, but the Inns offer them. Always check opportunities before making sweeping assumptions. No one can move from undergrad to pupilage. There’s a course to be completed. It’s also possible to draw down expenses from your pupilage award for training as it’s not taxed. It’s a training award in essence. Certainly at over £50,000 it’s possible - lesser sums it’s more difficult.

MFL degrees are academic and plenty seem to have them at the bar. . The idea everyone has holidays and skiing holidays to aid their Oxbridge entry is actually offensive to those that do none of those things and have achieved because they have some ability. An ability that some (but not all) state schools fail to develop and dc prefer not to study. The people who do should be applauded. Not told they are second rate thickos. Jeez! What have we become?

The criminal bar is woefully underpaid. It’s concerned it will only attract the well off! It can take years to earn reasonably well. Costs of travel cause endless problems and overnight stays.

Im sure the President of the Family Division, Sir Andrew McFarlane, thinks he’s presiding over a load of low ability idiots who would be better off being baristas. (Sarcasm). The rubbish I’m reading here!

@Investinmyself DDs friends got awards for the GDL. Many lived within commuting distance as well. It’s clearly a possibility and city solicitors pay the fees too for their bespoke courses. Around 40% of the bar doesn’t have a first degree in law. However the best advice is always play to your strengths. If it’s law, do law. If is something else that’s academic, do that. The degrees should ideally be academic though. As it’s competitive, getting the right academic background as a launch pad matters.

Some get scholarships to fund part and some can live rent free in London with parents. But definitely needs factoring in.
It doesn’t sound like this girl has a burning desire to study mfl just some people expressing opinion that it might be a way to somehow game the system - better acceptance rate for Oxbridge for mfl than law. You can do law with a language at Oxford and other high ranking universities if she did want to continue language.
My advice would be if you have a passion to study law study it at degree level.

@TizerorFizz nobody said people are cheating their way into Oxbridge. That’s you overreacting or wilfully misinterpreting things.

@Investinmyself I think everyone agreed that she should do law rather than look at odds for MFL. However it’s not accurate to say there’s no funding and MFL degrees are Mickey Mouse degrees as others have. So all these factors need weighing up but with a clear desire to study law, she should do that. It’s also worth understanding a law degree guarantees nothing but an Oxbridge degree is the top currency.

@HistoryMmam You were clearly having a pop at perceived unfairness regarding dc at private schools and MFLs. You might like to know the biggest issue is dc with family who are actually from the country with the target language and teach dc. These are in state schools and it’s widely acknowledged it makes others give up. You can fine tune your words and blame me if you like. However I’m not buying it and I know exactly what you meant. Frankly it’s childish.

There is a huge problem with MFL in state education @TizerorFizz and to deny that is plainly wrong. My DS got an 8 in German GCSE, his only language. He would have liked to study it at A level but his college cut the course because of budget issues. His experience is by no means unique. The unfairness is not ‘perceived’ no matter how much you want to believe it.

The problem with MFL in the state sector has been present for years and years. Our own school - a high achieving state grammar - had to axe German A level repeatedly due to financial constraints.

I'm not convinced that most of the students who are bi-lingual in Western European languages are in the state sector. I am convinced that they're over represented on MFL course at top unis.

Tizer the actual cost of the GDL plus living expenses are not met by any award from any of the four Inns.

And only Inner Temple guarantees a further award for the subsequent year doing the Bar Course.

Or indeed a couple of years doing related work. DD3 was a research assistant for an academic at Oxford and another at UCL, then worked as a Judicial Assistant at the Court of Appeal.

Tizer the Magic Circle firm that DS2 joined paid for his GDL plus living expenses in London (I was the other end of the country - not commutable). Then for his LPC plus living expenses. This package bears no comparison to the maximum available from the Inns of Court plus providers. For anyone worried about money - Magic Circle is the way to go. Just a shame if you're not monied and really feel your abilities are more geared towards the Bar. Or if you aren't in the least interested in commercial work - as others have already said, there are plenty of other incredibly rewarding areas of law, just less well paid (sometimes significantly).

@ThatllBeTheDay Yes I know all of that but dc do still manage who are not rich. However I’ll leave if there.

If a dc has not got all the advantages of being bilingual already, then surely starting from age 11 and getting to uni standard is a fairly decent trajectory? German has fallen off a cliff. Spanish is more widely available and French. My local fairly large grammar offers 3 MFLs at A level, as does my old one but size matters. Neither offer Latin though so maybe that’s the trade off? Schools have to make choices and students do too. It’s usually MFLs that get culled.

Most potential solicitors do not have a funded PGDL nor SQE. Vast numbers do those courses without a law firm sponsoring them, even Oxbridge people so it is material whether you will have funding by way of loan. Of course you can work as a paralegal whilst doing the courses part time, but plenty of paralegal jobs want people who already have done the LPC/SQE never mind have an LLB. I think currently we are up against more applicants than ever including from abroad so an awful lot of very good people are doing years as a paralegal and having to self fund courses.

Do you know the division of numbers Xenia - those self funding and those with law firm sponsorship? It seemed to be overwhelmingly the case among my DCs' friends from uni that they had a TC in place ahead of graduating. Anecdotal obviously, but I can only think of one individual who didn't.

Thank you for this.
What a depressing thread this is - seems widening participation is just given lip service in vast areas of this industry. Like I said- depressing.

Purely by dint of studying for three years rather than one year, a law degree will introduce you to a greater variety of areas of law and your enjoyment/dislike of those will no doubt influence which chambers you apply to and what area you go on to specialise in. The three years buys you a bit more time to think through what you want to do and why, chat to others who have been in the same predicament and so forth.
If your DD is interested in being a barrister then that would direct me more towards doing a law degree purely because her income will be so precarious and probably low in the early years. Yes, she might get scholarships and prizes and all sorts of other things - but the vast majority won't. So she will be living off what you can contribute, what she can earn and what she can borrow. Whilst repayment of student loans is determined by income, repayment of other loans is not. How would she find the additional year and for how many years would that be hanging over her?

Hopefully your family member understands GDPR!? 🤔

I imagine the information will be on the chambers’ website as part of members’ CVs.