Uni advice for potential barrister

[HecticHettie]

School and websites have given a lot of what I have now come to believe may be duff advice so I hope Mumsnet can help. My highly academic daughter wants to be a barrister and numerous well-meaning friends have told her to study another subject first then convert to law. However, when we went to uni open days (Oxford, Cambridge, King’s and Durham) we were explicitly told that if you want to be a high-flying barrister (not solicitor), studying law at undergraduate is pretty much essential if you want to keep all specialisms open. Apparently you can be a barrister by converting later but are restricted to family law etc (less
legal heavy). I am so confused as seen so many posts and people seem to confuse advice for barristers and solicitors. I would be grateful to hear from barrister parents only

IME (city solicitor regularly instructing barristers) the proportion of them who studied law as a first degree is significantly higher than for sols (where it’s about 50-50).

That’s absolutely not to say that she has to- plenty of people don’t- but it’s definitely much more common among barristers and if that’s what she has her heart set on, that’s what I’d aim for.

When one studies at Oxbridge, what's wrong with crafting a well written essay then using Grammarly ? people can write essays still and craft detailed information.

@Bardolier agreed. Applying for law maximises opportunities.

If she wants to be a lawyer (any type), study law. It’s the best grounding and offers a much wider understanding of the areas of law she could work in in the end.

I have a good friend from undergrad who is a KC now (specialising in employment law) who got a 2:1 from Oxford (jurisprudence) so you don’t have to have a first, although I’m sure it helps.

I did my undergrad at Oxford (jurisprudence) and LLM at Cambridge. My wife teaches law at Cambridge. I’m a solicitor so maybe not too helpful, but know plenty of barristers and happy to answer any questions you may have OP.

This answer was definitely not written by ChatGPT 😂

Do law. I did it and my friend is now a barrister. But be prepared to do extra stuff so you can progress. My friend did mooting competitions (fake court cases) and met loads of people through that. She still had to do a masters and take a year off for work experience before she got a scholarship for doing the bar course. Becoming a paralegal is good work experience also. Law is about who you know. Doing extra stuff makes you stand out and be remembered.

This. You really need a first class Law undergraduate degree to even be considered. You'll get on to the BPTC with a 2:1 but then things start becoming VERY competitive in regard to minis and actual pupillage and they'll start sifting by grades and by university. The better the grade and university, the better the chances of securing a pupillage.

The GDL really isn't broad enough.

My friend is a barrister, she gained a PhD in molecular biology and genetics, 2 years work as a researcher before doing the conversion course. She specialises in science and medical related law

A question to anyone who has applied for pupillage in the last 5 years ... do they still ask which university?

Nearly all employers recruit university blind now, changed very recently, all the top grad schemes etc. but I don't know about legal fields. It means a 2:1 at Oxbridge looks not as good as a first elsewhere when applying, what was interesting at dsds's group interview stages (she's applied to many, long story) was the diversity of institutions they had attended

@mitogoshigg My DD is a barrister and is part of the recruitment team for pupils. They don’t look at uni but there’s some push back on this now. Like lots of Chambers they are finding some pupils are not who they want as tenants. They are wondering if uni should be back in the process. They then look at third six pupils from other Chambers. There’s plenty of them. DD is also a pupil supervisor.

@HecticHettie DD has a MFL degree and not Oxbridge. Of course you are not limited to family! She does family but her friends from GDL are doing many diverse areas. It’s possibly the case that a higher proportion of family barristers did GDL but so have many others and MFLs is no barrier to anything. Quite a few of DDs friends have studied the law masters at Cambridge in addition to GDL so it’s a long haul.

However if she wants law heavy practise,then yes, study law. The highest ranking unis still hold sway and some barristers are 100% Oxbridge. It’s worth looking at Legal Cheek for info. I think the best law degrees are excellent but being a barrister needs confidence, court skills and people skills, not just brains.

It depends on the size of the pupillage provider, I've found. Large providers often recruit university blind but still ask for transcripts whereas the smaller providers do tend to ask and would more likely take a 2:1 from Oxbridge than a first from Bristol or Cardiff without additional experience edging the candidate over the others.

If she wants to study law study law. It’s a fantastic degree and you get to do all the interesting options not just the core on a conversion.
Unless you are wealthy funding a conversion isn’t easy.
For bar those with first have much higher chance if getting a top grade on bar course and in turn better odds of getting pupillage.
https://www.legalcheek.com/2022/10/want-to-boost-your-pupillage-chances-scholarships-perseverance-and-a-first-class-degree-remain-key-factors-new-report-finds/amp/

There are GDL scholarships. They have many with first class degrees. The first at some unis is unlikely to trump a 2:1 from the top tier. It’s really not all about uni in many areas of law. There’s way more that they look at. For the brightest, they come through anyway but some will prefer criminal, which is the lowest paid. Not everyone can be commercial or wants to be. A key to getting pupilage is knowing your strengths. This can be honed at uni or GDL.

No. You have favourite barristers at favourite sets. They become your go-to people.

Ignore the school. Languages are a nice add on, but to get the breadth of knowledge about the law that I want to see in counsel, you need a law degree. She can always do a ‘law with Xxx language’ if she really wants to.

Client solicitors have all sorts of attributes they want in a barrister. You are not, presumably, instructing in all areas of law.

However it’s always best to do what you are best at!

I loved my LLB (I am a solicitor not barrister). I think she would be best doing a law degree first but it is certainly not essential for barrister. have at a look at profiles of the newest youngest juniors on websites of barristers' chambers where she may want to work. Look for those with a very recent "call". eg Brick Court which I sometimes use see https://www.brickcourt.co.uk/our-people/barristers First one I clicked on proves me wrong - laughing as I type - as he didn't do law first - history in London very high first, then seems to have chosen solicitor option as did law conversion then solicitor LPC course and later a masters in NY.
Okay next one looks more typical jurisprudence, first class Oxford, then BCL Oxford distinction then bar course (distinction) and has 7 university prizes (more than I do).....

Some firms have solicitors with higher rights of audience civil or criminal so equivalent court rights to a barrister.
I know when my husband did his higher rights in London there was a group from a magic circle firm.

My dd is at Oxford, her friend who wants to be a Barrister is studying PPE.

Barrister newly called doing a hearing for me this week (well regarded northern chambers) all A* gcse and A level, first class Durham English Lit (lots of extra curricular with positions of responsibility inc drama), GDL commendation, BVC very competent, 3 years legal assistant type work before securing pupillage.

@Investinmyself Fairly standard education and extras then. Sometimes the education is a bit over blown. DD has a 2:1. There might be just 1 or 2 marks in this and a first. All the other things count and Outstanding at Bar course is a big bonus. The top London barristers usually have this. DD got pupillage before she started on Bar course so didn’t need para legal work but friend was a judicial assistant to LCJ which is very sought after.

Yes agree. DD3 didn't do postgrad after Oxford but did work as a research assistant to two academic lawyers and then did a year as a Judicial Assistant at the Court of Appeal - had a great year and found the work incredibly interesting. The CVs for the more junior juniors at the London Bar is relatively mixed. It's not all top of the year followed by BCL.

It used to be the case that Oxbridge (non-law) degree + GDL was the golden ticket. Not any more (and rightly so), as chambers have become more impartial and meritocratic. They just want bright young lawyers. For the LLB, it is worth checking the recent TIMES university rankings for law which, though not flawless, give a rough indication of strength:

https://www.thetimes.com/uk-university-rankings/league-table

UCL is 1st, Cambridge is 2nd, Glasgow 3rd and LSE 4th. Oxford is 7th, just ahead of Edinburgh (8th). This is partly because Oxford did not do so well in the last research assessment (REF) for law.

(Although for law Scotland needs to be treated differently if people are studying law as it is a different legal system - usually you would want an English law LLB which is usually done in England not Glasgow)

I’m a solicitor but regularly instruct barristers from the top chambers - their cvs are really easy to access on chambers websites and usually contain full academic backgrounds.

We use Fountain Court, One Essex Court, Brick Court, Blackstone and 3VB for most things (complex commercial disputes) so if she wants to aim high have a look at those.

You will find that the vast majority went to Oxbridge and got first class degrees but not all studied law. If she didn’t want to study law I’d be saying to go with her passion because not having studied it is no barrier, but since she does in fact want to study it then she should, as it will save her a year of study and make entry to postgrad law degrees easier (which she may need or want to do).

Glasgow has a big common law course aswell as Scots law.