Uni advice for potential barrister

[HecticHettie]

School and websites have given a lot of what I have now come to believe may be duff advice so I hope Mumsnet can help. My highly academic daughter wants to be a barrister and numerous well-meaning friends have told her to study another subject first then convert to law. However, when we went to uni open days (Oxford, Cambridge, King’s and Durham) we were explicitly told that if you want to be a high-flying barrister (not solicitor), studying law at undergraduate is pretty much essential if you want to keep all specialisms open. Apparently you can be a barrister by converting later but are restricted to family law etc (less
legal heavy). I am so confused as seen so many posts and people seem to confuse advice for barristers and solicitors. I would be grateful to hear from barrister parents only

I meant to add: DDs friend is the DD of a single mum who is a nurse. With younger siblings, there was no spare money and definitely not .£12,000. She got a residential scholarship, if you have £12,000 you do need to cough it up I’m afraid.

No-one had denied that the courses are astronomically expensive partly because only you have commented. Tizer mentions the Cambridge courses often, as something one can do to top up. It's breezily said, which gives the false impression that it's a simple solution for those wanting to beef up their legal credentials.

if a pupil barrister were to say this stuff to a KC, or a law student to their professor, they would be seriously questioning their admissions process for having let in someone who is unteachable.

What are you on about?! You’ve obviously completely misunderstood my post(s).

Tizer wow. I was also a single mother, DD3 had several younger siblings and we certainly didn't have a spare £12k. Be a little cautious about your phrasing perhaps. The £12k had to be borrowed.

I'm not clear that the poster has misunderstood your post(s). You seem to have a fairly simplistic approach to this but I've no interest in getting into an exchange about it.

Cool

Lots of people do have to borrow money, I get that. You neglected to say that @ThatllBeTheDay . So I’m not really being disrespectful and no doubt you could afford the loan! Usually they aren’t available to the destitute. Children cost money don’t they?

The dc I’m talking about - her DF had died and others might have similar issues. If people really are unable to borrow money, I’m just trying to say there are other funding options to be explored. I also believe some dc have huge pupillage awards they can draw down, huge scholarships too and do a bit of paid work. In short a lot of talented people do manage and they are not all wealthy. It’s not that I breezily talk about any funding,I mention it because it exists. If students haven’t looked for funding, don’t know it exists, or believe everyone else is rich, it’s a great shame because there is support. Every avenue is worth a look,

if you have £12,000 you do need to cough it up I’m afraid

On any level that's bad Tizer. But never mind, I've come across much worse or at least equally thoughtless comments on MN.

I didn't borrow the £12k myself as it happens, although a full exposition of my finances as they were at that time isn't anyone else's business. DD3 managed and is fine. She's very lucky to have natural ability in spades even if she does lack a fat cat mother.

My reference to your being breezy is in relation to the Oxbridge postgrad degrees, not to the Inns scholarships. At £45k a pop, I would hold back a bit on the breeze myself. The MCL is undoubtedly a degree for those with a fat cat parent.

I’m sure she is. A formidable brain goes a long way. You did not say earlier anyone had borrowed money. Finding dc need extra isn’t the same as saying the shortfall was borrowed @ThatllBeTheDay So had you been clear, I would not have made any assumption. I do remember you looking at a private school in Oxford though and some lovely holidays. I know parents have remortgaged houses to raise money. Dc are left money by grandparents. I’ve seen various funds used and money borrowed. I’m not really sure where your anger is coming from? Lots of these dc will be high earners. They and their parents invest in them. Borrowing isn’t unusual. You surely agree dc should investigate all possibilities though?

I see so many people saying on various groups that they have managed to retrain as a lawyer.

And what they mean is they got into a university to do a law degree and have been accepted into an lpc or sqe course.

They have no guarantee of any job at the end. It's very competitive and encouraging people to spend thousands with no job at the end seems daft.

A law degree is of course useful for any career but if you are not getting your next training funded, then maybe think of other graduate options.

Yes I had plans to sell our cottage and rent in Oxford thus funding two years of sixth form for the youngest DD, but she wanted to stay at her state school where we were so the plan was shelved.

I subsequently did sell, once she had finished school, but not at the time DD3 needed help.

True also that we have since been to AirBnBs in Budapest, Florence, and France and had a lovely time.

I absolutely agree that DC should be aware of all options - no quarrel whatsoever with that.

Apologies Tizer, an omission: I also went to Zurich to visit the Magic Circle son, last autumn - he was sent there for a none month posting. Again, had a very nice time.

*nine month posting (typo).

@burnoutbabe The barristers who do the Cambridge course, do it between Barrister course and starting pupilage so they know they have a work in the future. Maybe the uni should be looking at its fees!? As I said earlier, some are now going to Harvard and similar. However no one needs to do this. If they aren’t getting employers to pay or decent scholarships it’s a moot point about whether it’s worth the outlay. However once you have pupilage, that’s a different scenario. However people can assess the chances but as thousands and thousands do law degrees, the majority don’t become solicitors and definitely not barristers so why are so many grads being produced?

This brings back memories of my dad telling me I’d have to get a loan if I wanted to study for the Bar. Luckily I was given a scholarship by my Inn which was a lifesaver.
It’s saddening and frustrating that young people are still being put off the Bar because of high costs of training. Funnily enough I looked at the Cambridge course being discussed because DS is thinking of going in this direction and the fees are eye-watering. The Bar are doing what they can to widen participation but I fear it will continue to be dominated by boarding school types because they are the only people who can not only afford the fees but also cope with the financial insecurity of the early years.
I think a lot of people with first hand experience of the Bar will be cringing at some of the posts on here. The constant sneering at criminal practitioners is awful. Crime is an exciting area of law and some of the best and brightest people practice in this field. The idea being pushed on here that it doesn’t pay is basically rubbish. If you are good you will do well financially. I say this as someone who has a lot of criminal barrister friends. They’d have died a slow death at the family bar and are glad they chose this challenging and dynamic career.

@HistoryMmam It’s been the case for years that the criminal bar is on its knees! Lowest pupilage awards and low fees mean the youngest barristers struggle to make any money at all. You did I assume understand what the strike was about? If anyone advises about the bar, this area of work needs caution. It’s not sneering and the course to qualify costs the same but the rewards are far lower in a monetary sense. Maybe it’s not what anyone wants but unfortunately it needs to be said. This career can make parental contributions even bigger!

The bar really is not stuffed with dc from boarding schools. DDs friends have been to state comps, small day private schools, grammars and occasionally boarding. As she did. The scholarships often cover training but don’t cover rent. Hence there’s a shortfall.

I would say the bigger issue is barristers are London centric in London. Many commute to training and live at home. Renting is the killer

The fact you asked me about the strike makes me struggle to take you seriously @TizerorFizz but that is nothing new. I can understand why boarding school kids may sneer at criminal fees but plenty of people are quite happy to work in an important and exciting field of law rather than follow the money.

The best advice for someone thinking about the Bar is to get a first from the best university they can get into, preferably Oxbridge. It’s an academic profession.

What you study at university (within reason) is generally not important - though factor in the conversion year(s).

Social background very rarely matters at all.

I don’t disagree with that @Rummly but the bar is a lot more than an academic exercise. It also takes courage, confidence, flexible thinking and many other qualities. I could name many barristers with firsts from Oxbridge who have failed to make an impression at the bar. I could also mention names of people with 2.1s from former Polys who are absolutely stellar. The problem with threads like this and posters they attract are that they reinforce false ideas and stereotypes.

The advice you have been given is nonsense and I'm astonished they said it in those terms to you. It's an extra year to do the conversion and it makes no odds at all. There are all sorts of people at the Bar from many different disciplines and it can be seen as enriching to have a broader background.

Mind you becoming a 'high flying' barrister shouldn't be an aspiration in my view. Being a barrister is enough of an achievement in itself.

Schools are rarely very knowledgeable about routes into careers. At best, they are efficient at converting their sixth formers into undergraduates.

I am dubious about MFL degrees in the UK. There is a reason why it's easier to get into Oxbridge for MFL than for most other subjects and that's because MFL degrees are less good academic preparation for the workplace than most other degrees.

Totally agree @Ceramiq As well as being relatively easier to get into a decent university with a MFL degree it also attracts highly privileged candidates. These are usually privately educated as many state schools and colleges cut language A levels because of budget issues. They are also usually people who travelled extensively thanks to holiday homes in France, annual ski trips etc.

And I'm not sure anyone would describe family law as 'less legal heavy'!! And I'm not a family barrister.