My son not thriving at Cambridge

[Masalamother]

My son is 1st year at Cambridge and got all A stars at A levels. He was so pleased to get offer but reality is different. His school friends at other universities doing same course (Durham and Nottingham) have much less work and more fun time. He says they are getting firsts in assessments but he is only getting a 2.1 - even though he topped them easily at school. His course is harder - 2 essays a week whereas they do one a fortnight. He was always told to apply for the best university but now thinks he should have gone to a lesser one as degree class is what counts. I don’t know what to say to him. He probably should have had a year out because he seems very burnt out and disillusioned… All degrees are not the same - he/we never realised that! The advice of his teachers to “be aspirational” was simplistic

I think we all know Oxbridge discourage term time jobs. That’s kind of the point. Holiday jobs are a red herring. The point is it’s wrong to claim that Oxbridge students have the heaviest workload if you don’t take into the account the students who work in supermarkets, Amazon etc and still manage to achieve excellent results.

I was responding to more than one post on this thread which claimed that a 2:1 from oxbridge is as good as 1st from other leading universities. This is false.
It has nothing to do with feeling superior. When hiring we generally wouldn't have interviewed someone with a 2:1 from any university - oxbridge got no special pass - unless they had some unusual compensating strength on their CV, whereas we would have interviewed someone with a 1st from Durham, and if we had a candidate from Durham and candidate from Cambridge, both with 1sts, then it would've come down entirely to how they performed at interview, because we are not snobs. I'm sorry the existence of institutions with strictly meritocratic hiring processes is causing you some cognitive dissonance.

I am finding this thread really interesting though, having one dc at one of the ‘lesser’ universities mentioned and another who fancies HSPS at Cambridge!

Very limited termtime work allowed at Cambridge. The Xmas and easter vacations may be needed for study too, to a large extent ... I don't think DDs engineering pals did holiday jobs then. However they certain did in the summer vacs - mostly proper internships. It was actually a requirement of their course that they'd done a certain amount,of relevant work before progressing to the 3rd year.

I don't know what pertains elsewhere. Not sure many of the high contact hours courses allow much time for paid employment either (the chemistry degrees DH and I did back in the day certainly didn't). And on the other hand in terms of needing to work for financial reasons I wouldn't be convinced there would be much difference between oxbridge and Durham... the friends mentioned by the OP sound more like they're on the imbibing side of the bar.

“How does your programme recognise young people that went through state school and managed to get into Oxbridge, and then get a lower grade because the work is that much harder? “

You cannot have it both ways, that is why. Going to Oxbridge is an elite educational experience just like going to Eton or Westminster School. So once you go, you get the opportunities and you are no longer disadvantaged. You get access to a huge network too. If you do not make the most of those opportunities and shine, then you are no different than a child who went to Westminster School and was relatively average there (despite getting 3 A stars, because many of them do).
So if an employer prioritises Oxbridge it is just the same as Cambridge prioritising a child who went to Westminster and got 5 A stars over a child who went elsewhere and managed 2 A stars and an A (at a school where that was an amazing achievement).
Therefore, going recruitment blind and having your own independent recruitment process (and the willingness to invest in that) to discover the real talent is always going to be fairer for all.

It’s not causing me any cognitive dissonance. I was merely pointing out (i) that none of what you have posted about is relevant to the OP, because the relationship between STEM degrees and STEM jobs is totally different from the relationship between arts degrees and non-STEM jobs - context is everything, and (ii) your comments about “fairly well-drilled but unexceptional” first class Oxbridge graduates are smug, unnecessary and plain wrong. They may not have been exactly what you were looking for but on no sensible measure is someone who has got a first class degree in a STEM subject from Oxbridge academically “ordinary”.

As someone who excelled at Oxbridge from a working class background (working night and day through the holidays to pay my way) the kind of misplaced reverse snobbery about Oxbridge graduates really pisses me off. I worked really bloody hard, I did really bloody well, and there are literally scores of people who think they’re fantastic because they can brand all Oxbridge grads as poshos who only got in because of mum and dad’s connections.

if we had a candidate from Durham and candidate from Cambridge, both with 1sts, then it would've come down entirely to how they performed at interview, because we are not snobs.

I'd imagine pretty much everywhere would, it'd be weird not to.
Afaik your organisation is unusual in making a cutoff excluding most 2:1s, the norm seems to be to look at firsts and 2:1s. I don't think you can extrapolate from your (from the sound of it) rather demanding case.

all Oxbridge grads as poshos who only got in because of mum and dad’s connections

Calm down. Who has even intimated that they think this?

The poster was saying they take other factors into consideration - as they should, for example if a future employer saw the post you wrote, they may conclude that despite your academic achievements on paper, your reasoning skills and overly emotive responses would mitigate against wanting to work with you.

Now now @disaggregate - you are being unfair. In any event, harrietm87’s reasoning skills will have been heavily tested already. These types of firms were running the reasoning tests many many years ago.

Why don’t you give one a try? The Clifford Chance website I linked to has a mock test on it!

The poster I quoted referred to candidates who wouldn’t have got into Oxbridge if they’d been at a comprehensive, and then made several comments about them
being average academically.

It’s a bit wearying because I’ve seen it many times before.

PS @disaggregate you probably meant militate against, while we’re being petty.

@Masalamother sorry to hear your son is having struggles in first year. My son is just coming to the end of his 3rd year in Medicine in Cambridge and it is a bit of a shock of the system academically when they first arrive. He had 2 -3 essays a week in medicine in first year, although it does vary by college, but it's alot especially for science students who might not have thought so much writing would be required.
To be blunt, everyone there is probably the best of the best - so whilst you may have been top in your school you're now up against the best nationally and internationally in your subject. They do have to adjust and not beat themselves up if they're not topping every module/exam.
However, a degree from Cambridge is very highly regarded world-wide - I'm not sure the subject your son is studying but a lot of companies rate quality of uni and will understand that it's harder to get a 2:1 from Cambridge than it is from another university given the quality of the cohort and the intensity of the learning and studying.
One thing my son found useful was to study and revise from the start - he loves reading so that was a help - and he loves the subject so it wasn't a chore although the volume of work was very intense.
I'd also recommend, if possible, making a small but close group of friends - especially in your subject if possible - and ideally in your college. They'll be invaluable to share learning with, bounce off, have fun with and just do day to day things like go to hall for food - which is a great way to meet up daily even during revision. Helps give perspective and all that.
It doesn't really matter about getting a first so much in Cambridge if you can get the work experience and leverage studying there in that way. A lot of students are looking at that for the summer of Year 1 as most - if they want to get into finance etc - will be wanting offers at end of Year 2 summer: so they've jobs to go to when they leave.

Finally lots of Cambridge students feel this way - especially now around exams - it would be odd not to feel exhausted and burnt out as they're in the middle of exam season. But they are getting one of the best of educations in the world and my son, even now in third year, realises how valuable it's been and how many doors it's opened for him (and I never went to Uni and am in Wales with no connections - so it has made a massive difference, regardless of final degree ranking). I just tell mine however he does I'm beyond proud of him and hopefully he takes that into exams and knows there's no pressure only support from the family and a regular ear to moan to when needed or ignore when times are good :-) Best of luck x

Oxbridge-related threads too often descend into derails which aren't remotely helpful to the OP (though they may be of some interest to those with kids thinking about uni choices I suppose). Apologies, OP.

OP, I just wanted to say what a good thing it is that your son feels able to discuss this with you - all too many young people (particularly young men, I think) turn inwards on themselves and suffer in silence.

For a similar reason, I don't agree with the implication in some posts that it's bad for your son to be discussing his workload and marks with his schoolfriends, and should be more focused on finding his own tribe at uni. Yes, of course it's important to make new friends/ meet people who are going through the same experience. But if he really feels he is struggling, it's good that he can reach out to old friends for help. You can't be sure that their conversations are some sort of competition about who is doing best/ having the best time. My son is the same age as yours, one of his friends at a different uni got embarrassingly drunk, then felt unable to attend classes, started to fall behind... and my son was the only person he felt able to tell. Following their discussion he told his parents, spoke to tutors, and managed to arrange to study remotely for a month, during which he went to stay with my son and get his head together. He has picked himself up and gone back to campus. I think sometimes we underestimate the emotional intelligence of our young adults.

You may be right, @legalalien , but it didn't sound from the OPs posts that his school friends were being helpful and supportive. It's possible some of them may be a bit jealous of him getting to Cambridge and somewhat enjoy winding him up.

Agree with both aspects of this post

We also recruit blind and it’s a very difficult balance.
We accept no titles Mr, Mrs etc
No place of birth
Names are redacted by HR so we just have initials
No school or University name
If certain subjects are more exclusive to privates ie classics for example they are removed but generally we ask for Eng and Math and Art grades then number of other qualifications GCSEs and Alevels.
Any indication of a persons race or religion or sex is also redacted.

We employ via cv and portfolio and a one day design test they do at home.
Places are offered blind and people are asked to see around the office but that’s after the offer not before.

Absolutely no discrimination either way.

Failing to see in what way harrietm87 should calm down. Her points seems eminently measured.

Scraping an Oxbridge First indeed. My Aunt Fanny.

*seem (petty)

It is not a problem at all. But can I just say again that my DS is NOT doing STEM, he is doing HSPS. It is genuinely interesting to read all the derails though as I am not familiar with Oxbridge threads!

Is your son at Kings where most HSPC students are.
If not could he swap colleges as he’ll find more like minded people there.

I am sorry that your DS is having a difficult time right now but it’s a positive that he is able to talk about it with you.

Both my DC had a “wow, we’re doing way more work than friends at Bristol/Durham/Warwick…etc” in their first year at Oxbridge. But both decided it was worth the additional effort as they loved the tutorial system and all the extra stuff offered by their colleges. It took them both a term or two to figure out how to manage the workload without sacrificing socialising and other interests.
Does your DS have an extra curricular that he loves? Both mine did a lot of sport and that really helped with time management and perspective. College friends are also hugely important - they are living the same experience which is hugely bonding. A year after graduating, DS says Cambridge was hard work but so worth it for the friends he made, the sport he played - and the job he has now.
Hopefully your DS can have a rest away from Cambridge at the end of term. A bit of space might help him to evaluate the workload versus the benefits. Good luck to him whatever he decides.

I am sorry your DS is struggling @Masalamother . My DD studied NatSci and there was definitely a feeling of Imposter Syndrome in her 1st year. However, now is just about the worst point of the year. Once the exams are over, they can let their hair down and DD thoroughly enjoyed it.

Please tell your DS to reach out to his personal tutor or DoS as they will be used to dealing with people finding it tough. My DD has since done some supervising of 1st years and one of them came to her saying she was finding things really hard. I think DD took her for a hot chocolate and a chat and the 1st year was a bit happier afterwards. DD was lucky in that she befriended her NatSci colleagues in college and they formed a pretty tight unit. However, she also coxed and had some mates in the boat club and in various other groups or clubs.

To the people discussing work: DD never worked during the Christmas or Easter breaks as she simply had too much work to do. She did work in the summer but also found time for holidays. She is now almost 3 years into a PhD in Cambridge and mostly loving the experience.

There are lots of threads on here where naive OPs come on asking how much people give their student dc to live off. They are then horrified by the amounts many are stumping up each month. This implies lots of students at a wide range of universities have enough money not to need to work. There will also be Oxbridge students who do work in the college bar or squeeze in term time online tutoring, despite the extra workload and this being discouraged.
Your post seems to assume all Oxbridge students come from rich families and all students at other universities come from poor families which is baffling.

Of course not all Oxbridge students are rich. What a ridiculous accusation.