Is this fair comment or does it lead to an 'anti southern bias'

[mids2019]

More northerners to Cambridge but how do you progress with this? Does this sound alarm bells for those in the south?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68386836.amp

DS was told to do a fake 'neutral' accent in job interviews by his Oxford tutors. The anti Northern bigotry you see on here is shocking. Look at the clustered locations of outstanding schools, look at where the vast majority of excellent state colleges are. This support will hopefully make it fairer.

Not really, they aren't going to reject someone because they come from the south. They want to encourage applications from people who may not have considered applying but who would do well at Cambridge. They would then reject someone from the south if there was someone better from the north but that's based on ability rather than geography.

Cambridge want the best students they can have, and are encouraging more applications from geographical areas which are traditionally underrepresented in terms of numbers of applicants. That’s hardly controversial, surely? They’re not suggesting they’ll take candidates with two Cs if they’re from north of the Watford Gap.

Exactly. And it's nothing new.
I work at a university and we look closely at where our applications come from and then dedicate resources to raising our profile and encouraging applications from areas and groups that are underrepresented.....and we're an ex-poly!
It's how student recruitment and fair access works.

I think it's a good thing but not a new development as an initiative.

Nothing to see here.

I agree with the comments above as there is nothing new in terms of encouraging people to apply

However if there are still relatively few people from the North in a position to apply is highlighting 'skewed' admissions fair?

Shouldn't the structural factors in educational inequality be addressed prior to highlighting the proportion of Northern people applying?

Unless your suggesting positive discrimination (which won't happen) then the number of people in a position to apply may not vary greatly (though obviously they should be encouraged to apply).

The 'skewed' admissions may not be down to universities but to do with a number of complex factors. I don't think southerners have an unfair advantage but the article seems to at least hint at this.

Have you looked at the GCSE results across England?

You either have to admit northerners are thicker than their southern peers, or that there is a divide caused by ???. I'd hazard poverty. And the kids up north are being failed by the system.

Agree - London and the SE has the highest level of uni participation. Obviously therefore that will be seen in Cam's stats.

The issue is the structural inequality in the North and other low participation areas. Fix that, universities can't fix it all by themselves.

But even if you read the Higher Education board here there is still a perceived not for the likes of us, DC wants to go to a uni within an hour of home and a reverse snobbery over what it's like at Oxbridge or southern unis.

I do get there are great unis in the North and with accommodation costs being often a lot lower there is no need to go south.

Oxbridge has long been encouraging more applications from under represented areas but I am not sure what they can do if people choose not to apply

This.

If you look at the WIWIKAU forums/Facebook pages, you'll know that accommodation issues at Oxford and Cambridge are a very real stumbling block. Many Oxbridge Colleges will only allow students to live in term-time - they must vacate their rooms entirely every vacation. If you aren't in a position to drive your child backwards and forwards with all of their belongings every 8 weeks or so, that's a real hurdle, especially if home is too far to drive there and back in a day.

Odds are even lower for Scottish students. They have the lowest acceptance rates of anywhere in the country last time I looked. Low applications too (for a variety of reasons including fees no doubt). But it seems they don’t like the Scottish education system or the kids going through it. Unlike the likes of Exeter/ York / Newcastle who are happy to give unconditional offers to Scottish kids who have done well at Highers.

poverty, shit school and shit transport.

As above, Also still lack of aspiration in teachers for their pupils. DS shares accommodation at Durham with a student from a large council estate in the NW. He put it down randomly as his fifth choice as it was northern. First in his family to go to university. Even DS was shocked that his school had not given him guidance on aim high.

The colleges used to have storage for overseas students/students who lived a long distance away to use during the vacs, so they could store most things and take public transport back home - is that no longer the case? Before the summer vac my Scottish DH would pack his kitchen stuff and textbooks in a big trunk and get it couriered back home, it was neither difficult nor expensive.

If your kid is bright, a bit odd, gets perfect a levels and does an interesting interview- they will get in. Regardless of accent.

I think if they seem perpetually entitled and prepped, they might not.

And therein lies the issue what is the proportion of Northerners getting 'perfect A levels' compared to their Southern counterparts?

@mids2019 as a PP said there's definitely an issue with low aspirations etc but this is due to poverty, Not location. Is a 'poor Londoner' , in a low aspiration environment more likely to get to Cambridge than a 'poor Northerner'?

Also, this is just my pet theory with zero scientific basis. But 'ambitious' people, the ones who want to earn well, push their children to do well, aim high etc tend to be concentrated in London. Before Covid and remote work there was a clear, major gulf of opportunity between London/the SE and the rest of the country. There still is, but remote work improved it slightly, although that remains to be seen.

I'm not from the UK, went to a top London uni. Couldn't be arsed with the rat race so left for the North West. My 'average' London salary bought me and DH a nice big house with garden and driveway 25 mins drive away from the city centre with 'decent' ( for outside London) public transport. Trains to London 2+ hours if I want (if they're not delayed!). Manageable mortgage. For the same in London I'd need promotions, pay rises and even then we'd need to be working full time till retirement which I didn't really want.

People here don't really seem to academically ambitious to the point of grinding for top universities. When I first came here I transferred from my big London MNC and most people at the top came from very ordinary universities. Didn't get perfect A-level results but doing well for themselves.

I think, from here. If you go to Oxbridge you're extremely academic. In London/SE, there's a culture of prepping to get in as a PP said. It's sort of 'expected'. Just like some families expect their kids to go to uni and some aren't at all.

If selection was purely on the basis of raw intelligence it would be more even.

Have a look at the educational achievement figures for somewhere like Blackpool and then tell me this is not needed. There is a wealth of talent in the North held back by poverty, poor education and a lack of understanding about the possibilities life holds
It's not just the logistics of getting into a good uni and issues like travel and storage of possessions as others have said, but also things like internships offered in holidays. Students in the SE or those at London unis have accommodation and just need travel costs where those from the North simply cannot access them as the cost of travel, rent, expenses etc is prohibitive for most

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression, I take it.

I am a poor Northerner.Had obe dc at Oxford, one at Cambridge and another that turned down Oxford for Durham and 2 at other universities. The eldest at Oxford liked the course, but nothing else. Quite a toxic environment dominated by extremely rich students.Most people have imposter syndrome Bd desperately trying to prove their intelligence ALL the time.

Pressed send too soon
The younger 3 didn't want to go because of the above reasons and the total Ballache of a journey six times a year

And therein lies the issue what is the proportion of Northerners getting 'perfect A levels' compared to their Southern counterparts?

Not the exact answer but you'll get the general gist.

@boys3 I don’t think those stats show as much variation as I expected! There’s not a huge gulf. From what I’ve seen, people from “the North” like the North! Obviously people from Scotland don’t pay fees if staying in Scotland so it clearly skews their applications.

I do think we expect there to be a magic bullet to make people apply to Oxbridge. There isn’t one. The individual has to want it and, believe me, parents will find a way. But everyone has to want to make the effort. Pupils, schools, parents, family etc. The cost of living in colleges isn’t an issue. Not getting to and fro - people have friends and coaches are cheap. The bigger issue is believing “not for the likes of us” and not even looking.

As for those saying top grades, being quirky and applying is enough - it’s not. Pre tests sort out who gets an interview. The vast majority don’t get in. Look at the entry stats and nearly everyone is very bright! If only it was just about applying!

It is telling when the response to trying to encourage more applications from groups who don’t currently constitute the majority is objected to on the basis that it will make it harder for the groups who currently benefit from the admissions criteria.

If you’re really the best, you shouldn’t be worrying about increased competition, should you?

The applicants still have to get in - meeting the entry criteria. It’s not some horrible discrimination against people who live in the SE.

This is like when private school parents complain about attempts to make admissions fairer for state educated students.

As someone based in Cornwall, I feel like the South West is completely absent from these conversations (and the table above shows that it shouldn't be!). Is it that we're lumped in with the North and the North is a catch-all term for the non-South-East, or are we genuinely not included in policymaking?

I think @Summerhillsquare 's comment about equality feeling like oppression when you are privileged sums it up perfectly. Levelling the playing field is a very difficult task, but that isn't to say that universities (and wider society) shouldn't try!