Is this fair comment or does it lead to an 'anti southern bias'

[mids2019]

More northerners to Cambridge but how do you progress with this? Does this sound alarm bells for those in the south?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68386836.amp

It doesn’t matter if ‘going home’ wasn’t a thing years ago (and it was - those students chose local universities even then). It IS a thing for lots of students. There are plenty of students who do want a reasonably local university - and Cambridge only fits the bill for people in the SE.

People aren’t ’making excuses’ or somehow not ‘daring to be different’. 🙄

I don’t think private planes would go down at all well with today’s eco conscious youth!

Many at Oxbridge are not going home every weekend. They just don’t. The ones who want a home within easy reach do of course stay local. I don’t know any dc who went home all the time. My DDs friends didn’t. Too busy at uni. The ones who do want into be handy will stay in London, or Newcastle, or Birmingham etc. It’s also cultural. Especially for some women.

I live in a town in the East Midlands which is almost exactly halfway between Oxford and Cambridge. Students going to either from any of the state schools in town are very rare and despite our proximity it’s difficult and expensive to get to either on public transport. It’s just over an hour’s drive to each, but by train to Oxford it’s a good hour and a half and costs around £30 because you have to go all the way up to Coventry first. To get to Cambridge you have to down to London then travel all the way back up so it’s well over 2 hours and around £50. Leicester is pretty popular around here, I don’t think it’s a massive coincidence that you can get there by bus - even though it takes about an hour and a half, with the current fare cap it only costs £2!

My son is part of an Oxford outreach programme but despite all 9s and 8s at GCSE I think he is unlikely to apply. He was also invited to a Durham WP trip, however despite it being targeted at those in a deprived area the subsidised cost was going to be £50 and then we would have needed to give him spending money for 2 day’s worth of meals. At least his Oxford trips had the costs covered by the university.

Yeah exactly.
@TheCountessofFitzdotterel that's what I was trying to put across, and the article that @Xenia shared somewhat echoes what I was trying to say. Although I'm in the NW, not the NE.

Of course there are areas like Trafford, with a lot of grammar schools, and the culture + house prices to follow. A lot of recent HK migrants have chosen to settle there for this reason. But I found the general culture here in the NW very different from London, again at the risk of generalising.

Entirely anecdotal evidence....
I'm from a South East Asian country . Went to a prestigious London university. I got a scholarship - wasn't from a privileged background. My A-level college made me apply to UK unis as I had stellar grades but I researched, wrote my PS , found scholarship info in the course of googling PS's and did everything myself. This was close to a decade ago. There was entirely zero question of not taking such a golden opportunity, 'support network', whatever. I got my first passport, on the plane and off I went alone at 18.

DH is from the NW and baffled by all this although half his family are Oxbridge high achievers (and the other half are the exact opposite, which he took after. He's great professionally but bad at exams). When I moved to the NW I met lots of people who just didn't see the point. Bright people who could have applied, who otherwise went to unis like Manchester, even Edinburgh, hardly 'low achievers' it just didn't appeal to them.

My university name does open doors for me, but after all my time in the corporate world people at the top come from all sorts of backgrounds. I

DC will be fully supported on whatever path, I guess they might follow DH more as, unlike me, they didn't have to make their own way in the world. But, while I'd tell them to grab an Oxbridge offer with both hands DH sees it as just one of many choices.

It's very complicated and nuanced...

Do you realise that you come across as almost sneering about people who make different choices to you and your DD.

It will be the case that many people at Cambridge are regularly going back home. Just because your DD and her friends don’t, doesn’t mean that everyone at Cambridge is just like them.

In fact, this kind of attitude may well be part of what puts some people off Cambridge.

No. I’m not saying do as they do. But at my age I’ve had many friends, friends of DC and others who didn’t come home all
the time. It’s just that. Of course students can stay local if they wish but I’m mystified as to why northern students want to go home alL the time and moving away is a deal breaker. Oxford snd Cambridge are not the outer Hebrides. Also many talented dc are now going to the USA to study. I assume they don’t come home all the time. I actually think it’s a shame when talented dc don’t apply to Oxbridge. However I hate hearing all these excuses! Other people travel from all over the world to go to LSE and Imperial but our DC cannot get to Oxford or Cambridge? Come on….

I find it strange as well and it’s definitely something that has changed since my day, but your calling it ‘excuses’ does come across as unempathetic and yes, sneering.

I know quite a few young people who have had a happy and successful time at university and have launched into adult life without difficulty, but who came home every or nearly every weekend during university, which is nothing like my own experience.
However comparing my own experience with my dd’s, I am struck by how much more time I spent away from home while growing up than her, partly because of COVID but not entirely, even though she is relatively adventurous compared to her friends. I think there are probably different social norms which mean they often get to 18 with less desire to cut loose.

Jeeze you'll be banging on about the possibility of private schools having to pay VAT next op!

Southerner here.

Of COURSE there's inequality between north & south. And it's important to stamp it out.

Travelling to and from university and/or living at home is a massive deal for many of the less economically advantaged students at my inner city comp who may be able enough to apply for Oxbridge but also may have: never been on holiday abroad or travelled much within the UK; large close families; caring responsibilities; be worried about the costs.

I was staggered as a young teacher when talking to a bright 15 year old from the city who had never been to the next city - 20 minutes away, the seaside or London.

One reason Cambridge will be struggling to attract students from the North West is the cost, reliability and speed of trains. It is not easy or quick to get to Cambridge from Liverpool or Manchester. Oxford is a slightly easier to get to.

Exactly this.

I have students who do want to go to London unis. They see the opportunities there. Then they look at accommodation cost. It’s prohibitive.

I keep getting emails for summer internships for students. The opportunities may cost a few £100 but then there’s accommodation on top.
Taking it out of the realms of possibility for them. Similar opportunities do not exist in the north.

Many of my students are aspirational but unless there is family money it isn’t happening.

Money. There isn’t enough family money to support their child at these unis.

Many of my students work. Because they have to. They then look into costs of moving f away. Leaving support and their job seems to big. Of course I encourage them to at least apply and see how they feel later. But it’s an uphill battle.

In the 2022 admissions cycle, the most recent cycle published by Cambridge,
20.7% of applicants from the South East who applied received an offer,
17.8% of applicants from the North West who applied received an offer,
12.6% of applicants from the North West who applied received an offer.

The kindest thing I can say about the opening post is that it is completely daft.

it’s not some lack of imagination or some other deficit of character that might keep
people close to home.

Finances are a huge issue. Trying to get to Cambridge is a lot harder for some people than others. Train fares are bloody expensive and their families might not have access to a car to drop them off with their stuff. Certainly not to afford an overnight stay.

Most people can’t just swan off to the USA for university. Some students are working alongside university and basically supporting their families as they do so.

Many students are caring for elderly relatives or disabled parents or all manner of things. They aren’t going home frequently because they’ve somehow failed to grow up.

Others might choose to stay local. And that’s totally fine. They make different choices than you and hold different values. Not lesser ones - but it is common for affluent and privileged people to sneer at those values.

Some of those kids will be reasonably local to Cambridge and might be able to go back every weekend to help their younger siblings look after their mum or whatever (even if the people in your circles never noticed these students) and attend Cambridge.

Try having some empathy and trying to think about the wide range of different circumstances and situations that affect people’s choices.

(Incidentally, I turned down a place at Cambridge because it didn’t suit my circumstances - which were none of those listed above. Oxbridge isn’t the be all and end all - even if some people on MN seem to think it is).

Dd (northern) has just been rejected after interview for a Masters at Cambridge. Her feedback from the interviewer said she was one of the most fascinating people he’d interviewed, her research proposal was good but that there was only x number of places and they gave them all to people with research experience.

This is for a Masters course, not a PhD, or a job as research assistant. How many people straight after their undergraduate degree have research experience? Makes me think maybe Cambridge undergraduates get more exposure to research during their first degree than someone at a post 92? And then it becomes impossible to break in.

Oxbridge are some of the cheaper unis to live at. Most people accept this. The students on max loans often have more money than others where parents have to find thousands when finances are tight.

If we are looking at money, all students can work in the summer. Oxbridge don’t like it in term time. If fewer go to these unis from the NW, it’s almost certainly because they prefer Manchester or Liverpool. In many ways I don’t care where they go as long as they are happy but others wring their hands over such stats. However pretending it’s too expensive to get to and from Oxford or Cambridge once every 10 weeks and then think accommodation costs more is just wrong. Maybe Oxbridge should just stop their outreach. It’s clearly pointless.

Yes, I know there are options for storing stuff at some Oxford colleges (can't comment on Cambridge) during the vacations. I was pointing out that this is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a yet another stumbling block that puts people off applying and why people choose to go to more local unis which, if you live in the North, isn't going to be Oxbridge. However, even if you are able to store extra stuff (and you might like to take a look at this summary), it's a long time during the vac if you're managing with just the stuff you can carry home on the train. Easter vac (at Oxford at least) is 10 March - 20 April this year.

The rubbish that is spouted about students getting the max loans is ridiculous! DD gets the max loan, last year all of her flat mates were getting the minimum loan and all bar one were getting that to live on and their parents paid their rent in full. This meant that all 4 of them had considerably more money than she did. And they still moaned that they were running out of money and had to ask their parents for extra! Not forgetting the time that one of them told DD how lucky she was for getting the max loan. Yep, super lucky to know that once her maintenance loan runs out we aren’t able to give her anything more, with the added bonus of needing to repay so much more than them afterwards…

I think that shows a lack of understanding about how some people live and the choices students make.

Max student loan under £9k.

accommodation takes most of this.
The link below says that there’s good value 3 course formal meals in halls for £10-16.
Dd at uni was living off noodles. There’s a discrepancy that cannot be ignored. The difference is vast.

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/fees-and-finance/living-costs

Of course Oxbridge should continue with their outreach. But they cannot pat themselves on the back as job well done. There also should be financial support. Even if that is just a train fair home. There’s many layers to resolve.

Totally agree. Dd found the same. She had to budget heavily. Her friends were going on lovely holidays or fab internships - all paid for by family. She couldn’t as there isn’t any spare money I could give her.

We live in a fairly affluent part of the NW with a plethora of outstanding state schools close by and a scattering of high achieving independent schools too if that’s what you’re looking for. Both DH and I are southerners. We’ve seen our older two through the university admission process with one hoping to go this year. Anecdotally, what I notice is that whilst there are kids applying to Oxbridge and prestigious London universities, that number is lower than I’d expect from a bunch of affluent, able sixth formers. The very able ones want St Andrews, Edinburgh or Bristol. Some are interested in Durham but again, less than I’d expect. Interestingly, Durham seems to be thought off as far more aloof and snobbish than Oxbridge and has a reputation of being full of southerners who didn’t get an Oxbridge offer.
A large amount of my children’s peers and one of mine opted just to pop over the Pennines to Leeds. These are kids with A*s and As. It’s like Manchester is too close but they want to still feel ‘at home’ so they opt for Leeds or maybe Sheffield.
Interestingly, I don’t think this has anything to do with low expectations. Rather I think many Northern kids are just content to go semi local. They feel more relaxed and at ease amongst other northerners in a northern city. There could well be a cultural inferiority complex but I don’t see that. What I’m certain of is that they definitely see themselves as culturally different from southern kids. DH and I both see this yet we never felt that way about northerners when we went to university and in fact, I remember it being seen as ‘cool’ to be going off to a northern city from my leafy Hertfordshire comp.

With a few differences much of that chimes with what I am seeing.
Dd’s super bright friend with 3 A stars and an A (and bear in mind that’s achieved with missing teachers for some subjects) is at Leeds. I am sure Oxbridge would have taken her had she applied.

If you read the costs of accommodation at Oxford, many colleges charge around £7000 for rent and food (3 meals a day) for the year. Why anyone on a full loan and ability to work in the summer, would moan about this is beyond me. Who cares that other students might get more money? Ever the green eyed monster. Also
my DN on a full loan got a bursary too! £2000 extra pa. This wasn’t Oxford and I cannot speak for them but looking at many HE threads on MN, a recurring issue is parents who cannot afford a decent contribution. The parents shelling out £10,000 a year aren’t the majority. And do what if they do?

With A*s, As and Bs, my three have gone to a northern uni in a big northern city. No inferiority complex there amongst the students from the north. They've everything they need there - good courses, great cities and all at a more affordable price. Simply no desire to head south just for the sake of it. If you live in Manchester, Leeds is far enough away from home for you to be independent and your parents not to be popping in every five minutes.