Is this fair comment or does it lead to an 'anti southern bias'

[mids2019]

More northerners to Cambridge but how do you progress with this? Does this sound alarm bells for those in the south?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68386836.amp

@falmouthdoglover Erm, what? According to the table in @boys3 comment, the South West has the fourth highest rank in that table in 2023! The only people in front of you ARE London, the South East and the “Eastern Region.” Which means all these people are below you in 2023: East Midlands, West Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber, North West and North East. Yes, I suppose equality does feel like oppression when you’re privileged.

As for the OP, don’t get me started. When London and the South East have a population that is only 17 million (out of the UK’s 60 million) but account for 50% of the applications, and Northwest has a population that 8 million but account for only 7.7% of applications, and you’re worried about things being skewed AGAINST the South East…

Pull the other one. It’s got bells on it.

@5YearsLeft , I was mostly pointing out that the SW seems to be entirely absent from the conversation (I'm not sure it's been mentioned on this thread previously at all) and genuinely wondering where that means we fit.

If you look at the figures, there is quite a gulf between London and the SE and everyone else, but it's not a race to the bottom (or shouldn't be).

There are, of course, some very deprived/low progression areas of London and SE (and some very privileged areas in the North of England, or outside of the SE if I prefer!), and I can understand why people who fall into those groups would look at talk of actively recruiting from the North with alarm. Attempts to level the playing field and widen participation are always going to be a blunt and imperfect instrument. Personally, I welcome them nonetheless.

When I visit the South West I find opinion quite divided on what people really want. They like being a bit remote. They can be quite isolationist and very much promote staying loyal to Cornwall and preferably not having to bother with outsiders. But…, then they want the same as everyone else! Complaints about rail and road. Complaints about being remote. The NHS is crap (it is everywhere!) Complaints about not having what it’s perceived others have seems rife. There are cleaners and minimum wage earners in London too with ludicrously high housing costs. The population of the SW is low so tends to go under the radar but people we meet relish that.

London has attracted bright people to live and work there for generations. It’s built up a deep culture of success and many immigrants value education highly. Not everyone earns well but lots want better employment as they see it all around them and what it can buy. In some areas of the country it’s less visible and of course families are rooted in their area and culture. My DN went to the uni close to the football team they support. Not much thought given to future prospects. And it’s the same in the SW to some extent. It’s not so easy to stay put for uni in the SW but those left behind then moan about the outcomes for them. Taking a risk and moving takes much more determination and I do see that in the SW. There aren’t umpteen unis in that area and there aren’t many immigrants either.

Lots of students are happy with their choices. It’s only the statisticians that aren’t and the disappointed applicants. Those who didn’t apply are not unhappy. Telling them they were wrong doesn’t get us very far. Telling dc at school to apply which goes against their cultural values is difficult too. Maybe celebrating differences of opinion is what we should do? We should have course encourage those who are interested.

The table shows about 22% NE and 30% London for the higher grades, so not particularly surprising. I am from Newcastle and have siblings who went to Oxbridge - one the first from our school ever (I didn't try). Even back when I was growing up the North was losing jobs hand over fist so people moved just as my grandfather's family moved up to the Durham coal field as it was booming in the 1800s. My father and his brother went to Durham (medicine) from a state grammar in the NE which today does not send anyone anywhere good and not for medicine as it is a local comp and presumably people like my siblings and I have left for the SE because the jobs are there.

Also very good people don't go to Oxbridge (like I am and my children) but we simply did not apply and up in the NE you might get someone applying for Durham as that is closer and in many ways just as good as Oxbridge but closer just as 3 of my children had Durham and Bristol offers and all 3 picked Bristol just because it was closer to London, not because it was worse or better. So geography plays a part.

Oxbridge is almost the cheapest place you can go as rents are much less and the fact you go home in holidays which you can do on a very cheap coach home and you can usually store luggage is the opposite of the point made above that Oxbridge is expensive - it is not, it is one of the cheapest because of the lower rents in college.

I don't understand your point. I did mentioned the lower A-level grades at the start of my post, and you replied stating the same thing. What was the relevance of doing so?

Financial difficulties aren't going to be solved by touring around and 'encouraging widening participation'. All students outside London get the same loan. Unless Oxford/Cambridge are going to give out-of-towners grants as opposed to isolated scholarships/college funding then it's not going to solve the issue.

Especially if the people involved earn just enough to not qualify for the full loan, but can't afford to put away thousands for their kids.

https://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/maintenance-loans.html

For a 58K household income (that's 2 people on slightly below the median wage, 30K it's 5229 outside london and a great deal more - about 8K in London. Yet, rents in Ox and Cambridge are insanely high, not to mention the shortage of housing etc due to the high proportion of international students.

Instead of us guessing they should really do a survey of all the pupils who obtained good enough grades... all A's, applying for these subjects at other unis and ask them why they didn't consider Oxford or Cambridge. Maybe someone has already done so? I don't know.

@boys3 figures show there isn't a lot of difference so actually.. what is all the fuss about? Do they want 'less' of the traditional type. in favour of others?

Also the 'North' has extremely affluent areas too you know Altrincham, Alderly Edge, rich villages like Morpeth on the Scottish border... it's not a sinkhole... With more people moving out of London as it's simply too expensive we may well see the figures evening up more. that doesn't mean 'the deprived'. whatever that is might get a look in.

@Xenia no idea where you got your figures from but I have several friends in both universities currently, I myself got offered a couple of research jobs. The rent is certainly not 'the cheapest', it's 2024 not 1994. There's also a major shortage of housing price aside.

https://www.west-tpc.co.uk/news/the-complete-guide-to-renting-in-oxford.html
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/property/4243452-Oxford-Rental-Market#:~:text=Oxford%20is%20(or%20was%20a,most%20expensive%20places%20to%20live.

You can still get a one-bed flat 10 min tram to Manchester City centre for less than a grand a month. A grand is expensive. Average price in Oxford 1.4K.

Again it's up to people to do their research.

I'd agree with @Xenia that Oxbridge is sometimes inaccurately portrayed as very expensive. There is a lot of financial help available, many colleges provide accommodation throughout, meaning no dealing with the open rental market. And the long holidays mean time to work and earn money. (Going back a few years(!), I worked in a care home throughout my holidays from Oxford, and over a year, I probably did a month's more paid work in the holidays than friends at other universities, just because my holidays were longer.)

I agree with the comments that part of it is about making sure people are aware of opportunities available to them (which, of course, they may prefer not to take). My kids attend a Cornish comprehensive school and they have someone from Oxford admissions coming in to talk to a group of Y10/11/12 pupils this week. I'm pleased that sort of outreach is happening, and at that stage.

It would be interesting to see what puts people off applying.
Are there those that genuinely want to go, but don't bother?
Those that don't know all the opportunity?
Those that are applying for erm 'competitive' courses?

Personally IMO it's easy to get in if you just want the name, if you look at the admission stats things like Theology and Nordic (studies) have a high admission rate. But if you want to study, Economics or Computer Science it's very competitive.

Admissions and applications are also two different things. Are people applying, but not getting in? Are they just not putting it down as one of their choices? Completely discounting the possibility?

Half the applications came from London/SW. Population 8+ ,million. Compared to the North West, not sure what area she's including but Greater Manchester is just shy of 1 million.

Surely...it's not surprising that more came form the more populated area?

I agree that more can be done via outreach etc but location to me is a strange thing to target.

I’d agree on Oxford’s comparative affordability, at least when I was there. I was dirt-poor (first in family to stay in education past the age of 14), and Oxford was actually pretty affordable (mid-1990s) — I had a full scholarship that included a living allowance, college accommodation throughout, cheap food in Hall, storage for my belongings in the vac, and access to a hardship fund and lots of small university scholarships. Was also able to work a lot in the vacs.

I have something to add here…. Dh and I both went to Oxbridge (he has been a fellow and admissions tutor) and we live in the north now with 3 teenagers who have gone to a nice-but-average comprehensive, and we have watched with interest and a certain amount of horror as they have absorbed certain attitudes to Oxbridge.

We know many high achieving teenagers who won’t consider Oxbridge because they think it is full of snobs who will take the piss out of their accents. After spending years trying to disabuse them of this we have pretty much given up because the sad fact is they are basing this partially on personal experience; dd got to national finals in a number of debating competitions and experienced really unpleasant behaviour from public schoolboys with Oxbridge offers. I once read on an Oxbridge student forum (someone was showing me a post about something else, I don’t normally go on them) a student saying, ‘Every time I hear a northern accent I hear the Emmerdale theme tune in my head.’

They often go to Durham instead which I find bizarre as ime it would give Oxbridge a run for its honey in snobbery terms but I suppose you would be less of a minority.

One of dd’s friends is there; the admissions people were very supportive, gave her an offer so low it would astonish the people on here who insist you need 4 A stars minimum; when she dropped a grade (what with not having a teacher in one of her subjects for half the sixth form) they took her anyway. She is basically enjoying it but reports a lot of weird comments and when she was organising the northern heats of a national competition the society she was doing it for decided they weren’t going to pay travel to the north because it was too far and she would have to find volunteers from local universities.

I am really glad the Cambridge VC has noticed this as an issue. The fact is Oxbridge is missing out on talent and despite the superior funding they are moving towards being seen as a regional university and you can see why they want to be a national one. But the issue is a cultural one and imo it’s a problem with the student body as much as with the admissions process and I don’t know how you change that culture.

I think that’s very fair, @TheCountessofFitzdotterel — I’d be lying if I didn’t say I’d also encountered deeply unpleasant behaviour from ex-public schoolboys (my college was very Old Etonian and Old Harrovians-heavy, lots of dining societies, though by my day the Buller had dwindled to mostly postgrads living out some kind of Brideshead fantasy they hadn’t been able to indulge as undergraduates). But it was more than worth it.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel - that's a thought-provoking post.

It made me think about the small role we all have to play in changing culture. DH and I both went to Oxbridge. It's something that we don't deliberately conceal from our friends here (who mostly have teenage children, like us), but we're both a bit embarrassed about it and don't want ourselves or our kids to be considered 'posh' because of it, so we certainly don't broadcast it. And actually perhaps that attitude makes us part of the problem.

Yes, and what we have always tried to tell her is that the public school tossers are a minority, it’s a big enough university that you can find your tribe and ignore the idiots.
However, looking back, my best friend was from Barnsley and people absolutely did take the piss out of her accent, all the time, and that was our friends, who would have seen what they were doing as affectionate and gentle ribbing. But in my day if you were a minority you were far more likely to accept this as the price you paid for admission, whereas now people are more likely to have a clear sense that they shouldn’t have to put up with this.

I’m sorry; I’m a bit confused by this. You say you’re nowhere in the conversation and you’re concerned because you’re only fourth place and it’s not a huge difference (and it’s “not a race to the bottom”).

Then a few comments later you state that an Oxford representative is coming to your child’s government-funded school to speak to the year 10/11/12s. Well, I’d say that’s where you are in the conversation then. This article is just announcing they’ve started to do that kind of recruiting in North Western schools, whereas you already have an Oxford rep coming to speak to the children/teens (and I doubt this is the first year) and judging by your other comments, you’ve been to Oxford yourself. If you cannot see the difference between this and the rest of the table, I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t particularly want to be horrible and argumentative. The issue is just that the chance of an Oxford educated mum sending her children to a state school where the Oxford rep comes every year to encourage the Y 10/11/12s in the North West is very rare indeed, which is what this initiative is trying to change. If an Oxford rep is already coming to your school, you’re already getting the attention. And of course, I do hope you feel that your children have a fair chance. If you don’t, then yes, that’s still a shame; you’re right.

Greater Manchester has a population, according to the ONS at least, of nearer 2.9 million.

Morpeth is neither a village nor rich, and is not on the Scottish Border, it’s a short drive up the A1 from Newcastle. Ponteland probably would tick 2 of those 3 boxes, just not the Scottish border one. 😀

Neither Oxford or Cambridge have particularly high levels of international undergrads. A fair bit lower than either Warwick or Manchester and half, or less, than the likes of LSE, UCL or Imperial.

Most accommodation certainly at Cambridge is in college. So local rental prices which absolutely are high are not really an issue. When DC1 went the differential between Cambridge and Durham just in terms of accommodation and basic living costs was around £3k per annum, judging from latest figures that differential has widened further.

Durham has a far higher public school intake as compared to either Oxford or Cambridge now. There may be a very small obnoxious minority, but the vast majority from public school are perfectly pleasant individuals. And don’t make a song and dance about the type of school they went to.

like it or not with very few exceptions Uni intake is very heavily regionalised. Oddly perhaps Durham is the least so, and less surprisingly given where it is also Nottingham ( Uni of as opposed to NTU).

the South West economically at least probably falls into the Northern side of the North-South divide. But it does stretch. Swindon is nearer York than Penzance but is still in the South West region. I’ve always seen it as being not far down the M4 from Reading. The latter some might argue being little more than an extension of London but without the tube network.

The UK does have a range of excellent unis to choose from. And as several pps have suggested it is a much more nuanced picture than that shoddy piece of journalism might imply.

@5Yearsleft The South West is nowhere in a conversation about attracting more Northern people to Oxbridge because too many currently come from the South East. I was wondering where it falls! That's all. Where would you put it?

You're making a lot of assumptions about my kids' school that are completely wrong. AFAIK this is the first time an Oxbridge person has been in to talk to them (I have older kids, so I think I would know) - I mention it as a positive change. Incidentally, my kids' school is a bit of a shitshow - negative progress 8, Ofsted RI etc etc. There are good people there working hard to turn it around, but it definitely isn't the category of state school that you're assuming and it might not be in the North, but it's absolutely the sort of school that ought to be benefiting from outreach initiatives.

And yes, I went to Oxford (from a northern state comprehensive FWIW; neither of my parents went to university). I'm happy to admit that gives my kids certain advantages. I've said in previous posts that attempts to level the playing field are an inexact science, but that they are a good thing nonetheless. I think, although you seem to think that I'm trying to resource guard my own privilege, we're actually broadly on the same side.

@boys3 I am not surprised Durham is not particularly regionalized. It’s popular with private school dc and those with highly educated parents. They can and will travel to uni. Many from London and SE go there. As they do to Bristol and Nottingham and Edinburgh. I think the SE quite possibly has more students willing to travel and parents who facilitate this.

Im absolutely certain dc choose unis where they are going to feel they belong. For many it’s not Oxbridge. Their intakes are small and of course any international students make it even more competitive. Anyone with parents or a parent from Oxbridge has an immediate advantage. Debunking the “not for the likes of us” for a start and possibly brains as well. Knowing the ropes always helps. It becomes less important for Oxbridge to come to a school when parents have that sort of privilege to pass on but for others it’s worthwhile.

This isn't actually true. Arrangements can be made for anyone not able to cart all their things home to be able to store them in College, and there is the argument that people just have too much "stuff" anyway. Plus there is the positive that no rent is payable during the vacations when the rooms are empty, which brings costs down.

The main issue with attracting students from underrepresented backgrounds, is that they have to be made to feel properly welcome and see that Oxbridge is as much for them as the person in the room next to them whose father and grandfather had gone to the same college before them. That is what is lacking in many places and that is where more work is needed, mainly because the person in the room next to them isn't as welcoming and accepting as they might be.

There are lots of different points on the thread. Many at Oxbridge live in for all 3 years so are not paying the local rents and it is IS cheaper than many other universities. If that fact is not getting out into Northern comps then it should be.

On the issue of mixing children of different classes (something the old grammar school system used to do but in its day also risked alienating the working class child from its own family in a sense as it moved that child from one world to the next so as difficult an issue then as now) that is part of what university is about - seeing all kinds of different people and indeed different points of view - Labour and Tory voters together, rich and poor etc. That is the beauty not the downside of university.

20% at sixth form level are at fee paying schools in the UK plus there will be state grammars in posh area - not sure of % from those) so at 18 a fair few children are reasonably well off (as indeed was I in Newcastle - father a doctor) and my own children are too. So it would be surprising if children did not mix with some who were better off financially than others at university.

Lucy Kellaway (teacher writing in the FT https://on.ft.com/4c5fNHc) who moved from a London school to NE England wrote quite well about her particular state Catholic secondary where she now teaches a year or so ago - about a very different ethos compared with her immigrant London children; about the NE children having different life aims - not necessarily to want or need a high paid job, that life is not always all about that. It is certainly the case that there are all kinds of views, each equally legitimate about what teenagers "should" be going - whether that be following a path to God via their muslim or Christian faith or enjoying a life without too much effort at school in a lotus eater/benefits claimant for life kind of way or seeking jobs as a teenager which do not require qualifications or otherwise.

Then I definitely agree that I may have made some assumptions and misunderstood; I apologize. If that’s the case, then I do hope the fact an outreach officer is coming to your children’s school means that, despite not being mentioned in this article, perhaps that they are equally weighing areas they don’t receive enough applications from (which is really anywhere outside London and the South East) and doing more outreach. At least, I suppose that is my hope, but perhaps I’m being naïve, as I’m sure there are a lot of schools in the South West, and without a full school initiative, perhaps a lot are being missed (though I do think it’s great they’re coming to your children’s school). Basically, if only 28% of the country lives in London and the South East AND the ones at privately funded schools already have university counselors who will inform them about Oxbridge, then the additional 72% of their recruiting budgets should really be split up over the rest of the regions, and yes, I completely agree that should include the South West.

Thank you for apologising @5YearsLeft . I apologise too; I feel I have been too spiky or defensive.

I think we basically agree that the balance needs redressing. Not everyone, as has been pointed out on this thread, will want to go to Oxbridge - and it shouldn't be seen as some kind of pinnacle that nowhere else is equal to - but it shouldn't be the preserve only of those from a privileged background.

@falmouthdoglover Completely agree (that no one HAS to go, but it shouldn’t be only for the privileged).

Tbh I suspect the numbers applying to Oxbridge from the north are so low because the privileged kids from there as well as the less privileged ones aren’t applying.

I'm in my 50s, born & bred in the NW. Oxbridge was never on my radar. My school never encouraged it and because neither of my parents went to uni, it was assumed that I wouldn't fit. Maybe it's true; I thought it was full of plummy posh people.

I now live in the SW, in an area of some deprivation. My older DD is a Cambridge graduate who is now well into a PhD there. She went to a state school but was encouraged by the school and by us to go for it. We spent a couple of days there at the end of y11, just being tourists but looking at some colleges. It helped that DD's school has a great alumni network and through shared activities she knew older students who went and who really supported her. She in turn has supported younger students from her old school, but also volunteered on some of the schemes which try to encourage students from more disadvantaged backgrounds to apply. Her college does lots of such work too.

Despite being Southern born & brought up, DD has northern vowels like her parents and is a football fan of a northern team (my local one from my youth). She doesn't sound like the Oxbridge-types of my youth and that's good. Her friends are reassuringly mixed and down-to-earth.

@falmouthdoglover raises good points about the SW. It's a complete ball ache getting from Devon to Cambridge let alone Cornwall. Public transport here is limited to big towns and when DD comes home, it is invariably via London unless we pick her up, and it's still a minimum 30 minute drive to a "local" rail station. Students have to be pretty confident in themselves to go so far away from their support network, which I suspect is another reason there are fewer applicants from the North of England, SW England and Scotland.

I sometimes think that people in London and the SE don’t actually realise that not everyone actually wants to live there. People aren’t sitting on the north desperate to move to the SE. And those who are, do it anyway.

Geography makes a difference. Kids with good grades in the NE may well prefer to go to Durham because it’s much easier to go home for the weekend etc. Cambridge is much handier for people in the SE and that may matter in choosing a university. It’s a bit inconvenient to get to Cambridge from Jarrow and probably not a day trip.

Maybe Cambridge needs to think about how they can make themselves a more desirable location for people who are using broader criteria than ‘well oxbridge’ to select universities to apply to.

@ClutchingOurBananas A fleet of private planes would do the trick!

Transport is a side issue. If you live in Cornwall you know it’s a trek to get anywhere! Ditto the far north of Scotland. Who goes home all the time from Oxbridge? You just don’t. Going home frequently is such a modern idea. It was rare years ago. Oxbridge has short terms. You are barely there before it’s time to come home for holidays.

If dc don’t want to apply, they don’t. Many teachers are ambivalent “I’ve done well and I didn’t go” or “you’ll not like it there, it’s a bit posh”. Those comments are frequently heard. Many who apply have parents who think it’s a good idea. They don’t make excuses about transport, the other dreadful students you might meet, the etiquette when eating food, the balls you might never go to, the posh buildings and, yes, daring to be different. People who can embrace everything should have a go.

The rudest people my DD met at uni were state educated. It takes all sorts…..