Is this fair comment or does it lead to an 'anti southern bias'

[mids2019]

More northerners to Cambridge but how do you progress with this? Does this sound alarm bells for those in the south?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68386836.amp

Where are they teaching though? My suspicion is that it’s not in an inner city state school.

Well exactly.
Regarding the Civil Service, fast track isn't the only way to get in. There are also entry level roles. And the 'Civil Service' is such a large employer I mean even driving examiners are technically 'civil servants' with their jobs on https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/.

I expected a much larger proportion in various generic policy advisor/project manager/analyst/whatever roles.

I wonder what happened to those actually studying law. If they didn't get a training contract (which are usually open to any degree anyway so Land Economy/Classics/Whatever can also apply), perhaps they've gone on to do a Master's or the Bar exams, hence in 'further study and education' rather than this. Or as you said, chosen some other profession.

Had they just become solicitors, or paralegals surely they'd fall under the 'law and legal professionals' heading.

There’s too many taking law as a degree and not enough posts. They’ll go into something different I presume.
I tend to advise my students to consider a different first degree. Even combined to give a different skill set in case law doesn’t work out.
ive seen law grads go onto
policing, probation or social work.

Oxford and Cambridge have long histories, I understand. But for most of the 20th century, they were essentially local unis for kids from the Southeast. They built amazing reputations being fed by mostly privately educated children of the middle classes from London and the home counties.

I get that Oxbridge wants to change and encompass more now. But it’s perhaps less about what is good for Oxbridge, and more about what’s good for students in other parts of the country.

Why not let northern and Scottish universities hoover up the best and the brightest from their home turf and shine? Off the top of my head, Machester, Durham, Edinburgh, St Andrew’s are pretty impressive. Are students outside the southeast really underselling themselves not to bother with Oxbridge? Or do they just have better options?

I looked at law degree stats a while ago. 18,000 at that point taking a law degree. 6000 training contracts. 450 pupillages for barristers. Yes. Open to non law grads so law grads get 50% of the jobs. There are a myriad of civil service jobs but grad recruitment can be very limited. I think Cambridge grads would expect a top grad role with full rotation and training. I guess they could work at the “job centre”! I’m not sure this job destination info is correct though. All law grads you would expect to be working and training or doing on a training or master’s course.

This is what Cambridge say their law grads do.

i am not sure where I read this, but I do recall seeing there was evidence that when Oxbridge grads came from poorer backgrounds they were more likely to choose teaching and social work type roles snd not the highest flying roles they might try for. I’ve no idea where they teach but as 70% are from state schools it’s likely they teach in them.

Well you could interpret this in a number of ways.

For a poorer Oxbridge grad , maybe whose parents didn't even go to university teaching is a step up. But then the argument for 'social mobility' in a 'better than other universities' way doesn't hold water. Maybe these people genuinely want to give back? Or they don't want to aim high? Or, the supposed benefits of Oxbridge in launching ambitions didn't hold true for them, for whatever reason? Who knows?

Only 8% going straight into employment. While many may be interested in 'other areas' because they didn't get training contracts (a lot of which is big transactions for commercial law) family, criminal law etc are the ones actually going to court and the people who will become barristers. Which is what 99% of the general public think lawyers do anyway. I doubt that they're claiming grads want to work pro bono for legal aid, I mean look at Amal Clooney's glittering career (an Oxford grad). She did do an LLM after university.

Finally, it does say public service, which doesn't tie in with the earlier information. You are correct, it is survey based which means the responses depend on those who bothered to reply.

The Fast Stream isn't the most prestigious or competitive of Civil Service roles, 'full rotation and training' aside. It really depends on which stream exactly. It even has things like HR and some of the schemes don't even require a 2:1 only a 2:2. Specialist entry level roles like policy advisor or positions in the diplomatic service are also available and more competitive because, unlike the graduate scheme with structure interview processes and multiple roles, these need one or two people for a specific job, and the interview process is less structured.

We are in the north. Dd1s 6th form college has been doing a course for Oxbridge entrance support for the last 3 years. Teaching the bright kids how to get through the interview etc. like they have done for decades at private schools. Application rates have trebled and success rates of entry more than quadrupled!

That sounds impressive. Who is delivering it? What resources are they using?

Dc1 has got one if these specific CS roles. Applied for diplomatic service, treasury and policy. V excited at starting.
Went to a plate glass uni. One that has established itself well.
Even though capable of Oxbridge wasn’t interested at all.
Neighbour went to Oxbridge and their dc has gone there now.

I believe that social mobility happens through the generations. Teaching and nursing are both accessible careers. Their dc will benefit

Well first of all it's not nursing - a vocational degree which Cambridge doesn't offer! It's '

1. Primary and nursery teaching professionals

Which presumably means primary school teachers.

Of course their DC will benefit - but the question remains is said benefit more or less than if the person had gone to any university not Oxbridge. I suppose what you are saying is that parents who went will be better able to prepare their child to enter the same university. But that's still not relevant to their own careers. Education is never a waste but the question is Oxbridge vs elsewhere.

Also... about teaching... you say it's an 'accessible' career but all that's here on Mumsnet is how people hate it and want to quit, working 60+ hours a week for such low pay it's so hard, teachers leaving in droves, recruitment/retention targets missed blah blah blah. I guess it depends on location. In the NW where I am 30K is a good salary, very achievable and good teachers can make a lot as private tutors in the naice MC areas. Now whether we like it or not you need money to live and have a roof over your head especially in 2024 and this is doubly important for students from 'poorer' backgrounds who won't get a deposit from Mummy and Daddy. No disrespect to teachers, it's a shame that they (you if you're one?) are so undervalued.

30K is barely a blip in London/SE and wouldn't even buy a parking space, well there's shared ownership flats and stuff. I guess if the people opting for it are based outside that region it's still a good option for them.

@AndThatWasNY is it a college with the initials CN by any chance?

NW too and yes £30k is considered a decent salary.

The teachers I know are complaining after a long career. They have gained promotions or left to become self employed or go on to something different.

I mentioned nursing as an option at uni rather than a specific reference to Oxbridge.

And you’re right any uni is great for nursing, teaching etc.

The students and families i work with generally don’t have a history of going to uni. I suggest things that are familiar but still a step up I guess. And that’s why it’s accessible. It is reachable. Available in all unis for differing Ucas points. Different qual types accepted too. I do see a link say between a parent who works as a care worker and their dc wanting to go
into nursing as their step up. I find it interesting.

Teaching is rewarding and undervalued.

Finally the balance is being redressed.

When I was applying for uni in the early 1990s from Newcastle I applied to Newcastle and Durham unis. I was predicted ABB.

I didn't even get an interview or an offer. When we asked why they said 'they had filled their 5% quota of local students'.

🤷‍♀️

I think there are some very interesting points in this debate and it shows that is a many faceted problem and not one in my opinion of Oxbridge having a bias towards the south east in terms of acceptance at an individual level.

The points about further destinations of Oxbridge graduates is an interesting one and it is good to see many going into teaching though I wonder what proportion of Oxbridge grade who go into this field are state educated and from regions other than the south east?

A result of widening participation maybe that Oxbridge grad s do go for a range of fulfilling roles rather that pursuing what some would regard as high power/money careers.

I actually think teaching has been undermined as a profession by successive governments to such an extent that it is almost a point of embarrassment that 'the brightest and the best in the world' would choose such a mundane profession. I highly regard teachers and teaching and we should be making it a graduate profession of choice and not labelling those who choose it as somehow betraying themselves as they haven't opted for the 'high power career'.

Even before the fees disparity, no one from my Scottish school was encouraged to go to Oxford or Cambridge. One boy got in and I remember my English teacher asking him why he was going there. I had perfect exam results - all 1s and As which were the best you could achieve at the time - and it was never even discussed. I didn't realise until I was an adult many (most?) English secondaries will encourage their highest achievers to at least think about it.

@Horaced

to what extent do you feel that attitude is down to Scotland being a separate country to England and indeed one that aspires in some quarters to independence?

Is Endinburgh and St. Andrews seen as the Oxbridge of Scotland by the Scots and therefore there is no need to apply for English universities. I am curious if the ex PM considered Oxbridge as he certainly was an extremely ambitious bright student in Scotland; possibly a sense of national pride kept him in his home country?

@mids2019 Sury free tuition keeps the Scots at home? Many there might not value Oxbridge over St Andrews. Why would they as it costs more in loans?

I think research is needed into choice of jobs after Oxbridge. Who does what job category? I do think dc follow parents into all sorts of jobs. Vets, medicine, teaching - definitely! Some dc won’t be very aware of some careers and would prefer to go home to work where their decent enough earnings go further and home ownership is realistic.@boys3 Do you know of any research which looks at student background and career after Oxbridge? Anecdotally I heard dc from comps are more likely to go into lower paid careers by choice. Is there a regional difference? I suspect there might be due to different exposures to careers in London and SE.

There is research on this ..... for anyone who is interested you should look up Charlie Ball on Twitter/X or LinkedIn.
There's also extensive research on where graduates go after they've completed their degree.
This report on graduate migration is interesting luminate.prospects.ac.uk/graduate-migration-patterns-in-the-uk

@ElaineMBenes It doesn’t look at Oxbridge though. It does look at regional choices and says what we tend to know about regional choices. I’m interested in what Oxbridge grads do based on background and education. In particular comp educated dc.

No the research I linked to doesn't but it links another question you were asking. He's the leading expert on graduate employment so I was suggesting that he's worth a follow if you are interested in this as a topic .....

All universities have information on graduate outcomes so this information exists but you may need to contact the university careers service for that specific data. Universities and individual courses know what jobs their graduates do and where they do them, it's really important data for those working in careers and employability and those developing courses.

Do they have background of student linked to career and area though? Thats the key isn’t it? Who does what and where? In some respects, do fewer privately educated dc at Oxbridge make any difference as to who gets what job? The Bar was always around 40% Oxbridge. Are other professions getting the Oxbridge “rejects” because they still apply for the higher paying jobs? So it’s hardwired to apply for certain jobs irrespective of uni attended.

Do they have background of student linked to career and area though? Thats the key isn’t it? Who does what and where?

Yes. Of course they do.

That data feeds into the metrics which are used when awarding TEF gold/silver/bronze.
Student outcomes and 'distance travelled' is an important thing to measure.

Btw @TizerorFizz this is a whole academic subject. This research is being done and (most) universities take it seriously and use the research and data to better support their student body.

Distance travelled means absolutely nothing! Some people get flights! They have money. Others might be poor but live closer. All these unis have council estates and not the best schools within 20 miles!

I don’t truly believe any uni actually offers careers advice that says don’t do this career, do that career. This is entirely up to students. What I want to know is whether background is linked to career for Oxbridge students? Very much the ordinary dc who go. Not the grammar dc with high achieving parents. What difference does it make regarding career choices? Is this ever published? At Oxbridge it’s not a vast number every year is it!