Is this fair comment or does it lead to an 'anti southern bias'

[mids2019]

More northerners to Cambridge but how do you progress with this? Does this sound alarm bells for those in the south?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68386836.amp

Look, we get it. You simply cannot imagine that anyone would make different choices to you and your children and any rationale they might give is just excuses for their own inadequacies.

My dd on full loan saw the difference immediately in life style. And no she didn’t get herself further in debt to belong. She got on with it. Did it make her feel different - yes of course! She couldn’t participate as much as she’d like.
if she’d gone to London or Oxbridge then it would’ve been worse.

it takes a confident child to not let this affect them. It has been a learning curve for both of us to see the layers in action.

DD1 at Cambridge got the full loan. Due to being a fussy eater back then, now vegan, she chose to self-cater, other than Sunday brunch, weekly formals after choir commitments (free of charge for her) and occasional formals to celebrate other events. That meant that combined with the Cambridge bursary, she managed not to get into her overdraft, and was able to save a little.

Something not yet mentioned is that colleges do have some discretionary funding which can be used for recreation purposes. So when DD was dancing for Cambridge in varsity championships in Blackpool necessitating costumes and travel, her college gave her money towards it. DD2 at a different uni has not had the same access to such funds despite also representing her uni at dance.

@Malbecfan Im assuming your DD didn’t feel as others do that are posting? I think the money situation is overplayed. There’s lots of extra help available. Dance sounds wonderful!

I don’t understand the sniping either. Most people want more dc from less represented areas to go. All I’m reading are reasons not to bother instead of looking for positives. It’s a huge shame other Dc like @Malbecfan DD on max loan cannot get over feeling poor. The doors are open wide to get better money if you grab the opportunities. Plus the majority of Oxbridge students are from state schools and many aren’t rich.

It’s interesting though that there’s plenty of threads about how private school pupils are not being offered Oxbridge at the same rate due to widening participation. I don’t see these people sucking it up.

The statistic about higher % of those from SE getting an offer than those from the North was interesting but it may just reflect that very bright children at fee paying schools mostly do not apply to Oxbridge. About 25% did in my daughter's schools and the other 75% who would all be at least grammar school IQ standard did not as did not think would get in or could not be bothered or wanted to be elsewhere. In other words perhaps in the better state and private schools there is a more realistic estimation and in a sense putting off of teenagers who are not quite good enough so might as well apply elsewhere rather than in some other schools with less Oxbridge application experience; this is instead of a conclusion that as a smaller % get in who apply from the North that is because of an anti Northern bias.

The question of what teenagers (and indeed their family - a huge influence on most) want is very interesting. They may be perfectly happy to follow their father down the pit as generations of my family did in the North - I even found one age 10 on a census in the 1800s down a coal mine and working. Just followed their parents as indeed 4 of my children are lawyers like I am. Others do different things from their parents.

It isn't wrong if a child does not like the idea of academic work if they remain happy and feel they have made the life choices the want to make.

I read something this week about someone saying to give jobs to those who had the best exam results was unfair on the under privileged. ah found it

" Saying 'the most qualified person should get the job' is a microaggression, Britain's top universities insist"

That is a bit of a slap in the face for working class people who work very hard to get to oxbridge and are most qualified.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13120817/microaggression-Britain-universities.html

Interesting point - is it a microaggression to say the person most qualified should get a job. It seems to be to be one of our fairest ways of allocating jobs - XYZ has done brain surgery so he gets the brain surgeon job not someone who has never done it.

@TizerorFizz I can see many sides of the debate.

Cambridge has been fantastic for DD1 but due to our location, non-existent/exorbitant public transport here, we ended up driving there at the start and end of every term. I made it work, but not everyone has that luxury. Right now I am caring for my DF so it's considerably more of a challenge but DD is in a private rented house and rarely comes home for more than a week, so public transport is do-able, if expensive. It was the wrong place for DD2, who despite being interviewed there, was not offered a place. She has thrived elsewhere and seized opportunities not available to DD1 (a year abroad as a scientist). DD2 is much more of a continuous assessment person, which is not how C operates.

Whether we like it or not, there is still an illusion that Oxbridge is elitist and snobby. From meeting DD's friends, I know it isn't, especially in her non-central college. There are loads more applicants than places and indeed several of my y13 students this year did not get a place despite excellent GCSEs and predicted grades. Rather than saying "Oxbridge didn't want me" some of them say things like "I didn't fancy the snootiness" as a coping mechanism. Looking at the current and previous governments, it's not a surprise that people don't want to go there. The thought of mixing with the likes of BoJo, Cameron and Truss are enough to terrify lots of youngsters. It was also true in the 1980s when I was looking at universities and thought it was full of posh boys from Eton.

I didn't want to go to a southern university so my UCCA (yes, I'm old!) form was all redbrick northern places. In the end I was around 60 miles from home which was perfect for me. DH had similarly poor advice from school. Coupled with family issues, he ended up at a university that on here would be seen as 3rd rate. However, his degree and PhD were highly specialised and he has lectured at RG unis although now works in industry. He too wishes he had had the opportunity to apply, but like me, it was never suggested at school and his parents were absent or unaware of the fact it was a possibility.

With access to the internet meaning students can more easily research their study options, and Oxbridge doing much more to encourage a diverse range of applicants, I can only see this as a good thing. DD's college is linked to a particular area of "the north of England" and holds events for students during every vacation in the hope of widening participation. For lots of people including my DD, it wasn't until she had experienced a session at Cambridge that she could see it as somewhere she could see herself.

DD didn't see herself as "poor"; she just thought it was hilarious how some people chucked money around. She went to the Trinity May Ball. Tickets were £500, but if you worked there, you worked half the time and spent the other half as a guest for free. Guess who opened over 100 bottles of champagne & Prosecco that evening!

When you're used to privilege, equality looks like disadvantage.

@Malbecfan Trinity College May Ball tickets at £500!!!!!!

www.trinityball.co.uk

from the website

• Single ticket for college students £210
• Single ticket for college student in receipt of full bursary £185
• external guest ticket £270
• alumni double ticket £570,

and of course if we start to add extras it does build further

• Dining upgrade £110 per ticket, allocated by ballot, seems a bit risky if going with friends
• VIP reception upgrade £70 per ticket
• so a standard student ticket with all the above does get to near £400. Not quite £500 but not far off either. And well over £500 if you brought a non-Trinity friend along.

Many Cambridge College May Balls are every other year, does not appear to be the case at Trinity. And it is a fair bit of money to find without a doubt. Gift for understatement there.

at those prices I’d feel pretty short changed by Prosecco! Although I’d imagine a glass at most covered by the ticket price.

in contrast the Girton 2024 May Ball is priced at:

• bursary single ticket £105,
• standard college student ticket £145
• Guest or alumni £160

Do not appear to be any dinner or VIP upgrade options.

www.girtonspringball.com

@boys3 this was pre-pandemic and her take on it. As a non-Trinity person, she would be charged full whack. She could feed herself for a term on less than that!

Yes, I lived abroad when at uni, and college provided storage for my trunk when I vacated my room every holiday.

Also mixing with different people is good for everyone. Sometimes it helps children from less well off families to realise what jobs parents of their better off friends do as it opens horizons so it isn't always a bad thing to see people better off than you are at university. At Bristol my children found a range of different people many of whom were friends with each other and if someone had less money either because they got a minimum loan and the parent did not make up to the £89k of a child of a less well off parent or the other way round - very rich parents giving huge allowance people were sensitive to the financial situation of others on the whole.

Obviously balls are optional! I don’t necessarily agree the better off should be laughed at as those who are poor wouldn’t want to be laughed at! Do as you would want done to you is how we live! So good manners is for everyone.

I notice bursaries are mentioned. So another source of income for some. As the costs at Oxford show, catered college accommodation is good value.

We live in the countryside and have no public transport anywhere! No one has. To go to Cambridge it would have to be train into London first. However people I know who don’t drive and don’t have a car still get dc to uni. Grandparents, relatives and friends kindly help.

It’s a bit odd to cite politicians you don’t like. What about Oxbridge alumni dc respect? Do none of them count for anything? Again searching for negatives is a bit immature. I would like to think dc understand the broad spectrum of students they might meet and actually not be prejudiced. They might end up at work with types they don’t like. What then? Refuse to work with them? Going to uni is about sampling life and it might throw up people you are unsure about but life does that! Embrace it.

It seems like there’s two separate issues here. One is students not wanting to go too far from home, and that, judging by the ones we know in DCs’ cohorts, is common down south too (we’re on the south coast) for all sorts of reasons. The other is northerners not wanting to head south because of fears they won’t fit in, and that is a difference from the kids down here, with many merrily applying all over the country.

It’s interesting. Maybe it’s southern privilege, in that it simply doesn’t occur to them they might not fit in somewhere, or it’s that they’re applying to unis like Durham that are full of southerners anyway, or that northerners are just friendlier so it doesn’t arise!

As far as Cambridge outreach efforts go, if they persuade more northerners to apply then that’s all to the good. Surely that’s the best way to lay all the stereotypes to rest.

Slightly off-topic/anecdotal, but my kids came back from the outreach talk (at their struggling comprehensive school) full of enthusiasm and having found it really interesting. Apparently the 20 or so kids who were there asked loads of questions and got lots of information.
DS is the sort of 15-year-old boy who really hasn't given any thought to the future. I suspect Oxbridge ultimately wouldn't be for him, but I can only see benefits to him having it presented to him as something that might be a possibility for him.

@Hillarious@TheCountessofFitzdotterel@CarrieCardigan that's been my experience too!
@TizerorFizz , people aren't 'throwing up negatives' as you imply. They're just point out that some people might just want a different university experience. And they don't choose Oxbridge for the same reason they didn't choose Exeter, UCL, Edinburgh, what have you. It is very difficult for Oxbridge to accept that they actually have competition, and that people might have other factors in mind.

Before you read any further, I acknowledge that IF there are factors putting people off like finances, misperceptions of snobbishness etc these should absolutely be adressed. But I don't see why people being 'persuaded' to apply , as what @BiancaBlank said is a good thing. If they are being put off unduly, yes. But, if fully informed people, like the circles I and other Northern PP are in, are just not interested, I don't see why this is something to be remedied. For the unis themselves yes, but from a national perspective, It's actually a good thing that employers etc are being more open now, resulting in more opportunities for people regardless of the university 'prestige', so they are free to choose. Some jobs will still require it, it's certainly made things a tad easier for me in the UK but not as much as, say a decade ago when employers would only even consider candidates from certain universities.

If you look at the admissions stats, for say Cambridge. It's not even that competitive, depending on your degree subject. Happy to be corrected, I'm typing this on the train on my way home but...

None of their humanities have a single digit success rate. Only 3 subjects do - all Sciences. The lowest is 7% for Medicine Graduate Admissions.

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2022_cycle.pdf

Now look at LSE - their most competitive programs have a 5% admission rate and they are several. Their most competitive programs all have single digit admissions rates.
https://www.admissionreport.com/london-school-of-economics

As much as these institutions trumpet diversity, 'inclusion' etc the truth is the more apply , the more competitive they seem, it's not just about getting the 'best and the brightest'. And, even 'best and brightest' is a subjective term. Universities all have different styles of assessments, module combinations, etc. If we leave aside issues of transport/finances/etc nobody has really considered that the 'best and brightest' might be bright enough to realise that they prefer a different style of teaching, or that they want a specific module combination that another university offers, instead of going 'oh well Oxbridge' and ceasing to do any further thinking.

@PingvsPong I totally accept what students want. However outreach, commentators and many educators think dc should apply to Oxbridge when they could . It’s a constant debate. In many ways I don’t care but then we keep reading stats about the north and wringing our hands! We come up with excuse after excuse about not applying. Maybe it’s time to accept people make valid decisions for them and save the money? Therefore we should accept it’s down to each individual and social mobility is up to them and not the wringing hand outreach person and the journalists and commentators who pick up on every negative stat.

Read the article, it’s promoting fairness all round

@New2024

The issue is not that it is right that more people from the North should apply it is the implicit notion that the admissions policy is unfair per se and 'skewed ' to the south. If course we can warm words directed towards head teachers in the North and promotional outreach but as posters are discussing above there are many structural factors such as socio economic status that lead to the non uniform geographical distribution of Oxbridge students.

the suggestion that fairness is being promoted suggest a that the current system is unfair and I think this is doing a disservice to those that give many hours at the uni writes to facilitate tests and interviews. There is unfairness but the unfairness is deeper than a university admissions policy geared to getting the best talent from where ever in the country and that unfairness is embedded within our society as a whole.

I think there is a really valid point above that the south east attracts well educated well paid professionals due to concentration of professional roles in this region so it may be actually fair there is a disproportionate number of students going to Oxbridge fron this region. Maybe it is just a fact that if your parents are well educated and you have a stable upbringing which is well resourced educationally (plus genetic advantage!???) then you will have a greater chance of attending a good university. If this the source of the unfairness then it is debatable whether it is truly unfair.

I did read the article but I think there are nuanced points to this and a slightly provocative title to an article which is quite an anodyne appeal for more pupils to apply to Oxbridge from the NW (which is a good thing) which you would expect as a matter of course from a decent VC.

Sorry for the typos

In the most recent admissions data published, Cambridge had a much higher acceptance rate for applicants from the South East than from other parts of the UK.

Comparing the admissions statistics for students from the South East and Wales who apply to Cambridge:

12.6% of applicants from Wales who applied received an offer
20.7% of applicants from the South East who applied received an offerw

Similarly, we can see from the Oxford admissions statistics

3.9% of UK applicants who apply to Oxford are from Wales
Only 3.1% of UK students who are admitted to Oxford are from Wales

Yet, 4.1% of UK students who receive AAA and above in A-levels are from Wales.

Surely, @mids2019, even you can see that there is a problem here.

@NoraBattysCurlers

I don't deny the statistics but it if there is a problem how do you solve it?

is it a case of continuous outreach, investigating whether there is a systemic problem with the application process, or fundamentally addressing educational inequality?

I am thinking the latter but that is quite a large problem but one where university chancellors can't wade in politically. I just feel diplomatic outreach to the UK as a whole his welcome but I think you cu question whether it does have demonstrable impact.

@NoraBattysCurlers What it shows is that the Welsh do apply to Oxbridge but not in the numbers you think they should. So again it’s wringing hands by commentators but according to many posters here, those DC are entitled to not apply. Maybe they prefer Cardiff, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool? I can’t see how anyone can force students to apply and obviously the grades achieved tell us absolutely nothing. Or about the courses these DC want. If they have A levels in Art, Business Studies and Photography, Oxbridge isn’t for them. (Nothing wrong with those subjects by the way: DD took them and achieved Oxbridge worthy grades). Lots of DC getting higb grades aren’t the academic dc who would thrive at Oxbridge. They also want other courses. Fair enough really.

She’s the new Vice, so making her style clear.

Colleges and Uni have been working on this sort of thing for years and years. My own DH is a Cambridge uni prof from a comp in the north.

Bit of context needed. That's for a double ticket. It's also a treat. Some students may go every year, but not all by any means. Students from other colleges will get tickets too. Not so many people add in the dining, as there's plenty of other food available on the evening and no additional costs for drinks throughout the evening, or for any of the activities, bands, fairground rides, etc. Kicks off around 9.00 pm and everyone clears out around 6.00 pm. It's comparable to what your YP might pay to go to a festival, and fair enough to fleece the alumni with the cost of their tickets. I went a few years ago, as a non-student, with my husband. Really enjoyed it. Mix of ages there and a lovely atmosphere. When you've spent that much on a ticket, you're going to make sure you have a good evening.