How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

It's not invariably about being articulate, though. Different subjects have different 'house styles'. It is important to learn to use these. Quite often, parents 'help' by telling their adult children what they think. Sometimes it's genuinely helpful (and correcting spelling/grammar properly would always be helpful). But quite often the issue isn't just whether a student can use 'their' and 'there' correctly. It's learning whether or not the convention is to use the passive or not, whether to write in the first person or not, etc. Students who don't pick up on these things often (IME) struggle with larger concepts, because they haven't understood the perspective they're meant to be writing from.

You are right @SarahAndQuack. DD studied a STEM subject, so some of your points didn't really apply to DD.

I just really checked for spelling and grammar.

Oh, I bet they really did ...

Well, whatever she did she must have got something right. None of her work was below a 2.1. She graduated with a first including a first for her dissertation.

Since @RampantIvy is a copywriter and proof-reader by profession, I'm pretty sure she will know the difference between checking the spelling and grammar and introducing her own opinions. Making suggestions so the copy will read better without in any way altering the writer's own 'voice' is precisely the job!

Thank you @thing47. As I know very little about immunology DD wrote all the content and I just did a spelling and grammar check.

I got a third ( from Oxford). It felt like the end of the world at the time, and prevented me from applying for most grad schemes, but I got where I wanted to be in the end.
I applied for a non- graduate "technician" job in my chosen field. As they usually took staff straight from school and sent them on day release to do an btec, I persuaded them let me do a relevant masters instead. Once I'd got through that, and also got some experience, I was able to get a graduate scientist job.
Once you've got some work experience, no-one cares about the degree classification. The masters was much easier conceptually than my batchelors degree, and this was helped by being relevant to my work.

That's an impressive 'either/or' you've got going there.

Meanwhile, two of my DCs who have graduated so far have found jobs, bought homes, sold them, bought others, and have managed to travel all over the world, paying their own way. The other two have elected to get graduate degrees. Their traveling time will come too.

Financial independence means you can spend your money on whatever you want, be it your own home, pets, children, concerts, hobbies, travel...

You can learn all those virtues while slaving away at part time jobs during your teen years and while at university, plus 'dealing with difficult people'.

There is an enormous amount of privilege apparent on this thread. There absolutely is a 'boat' for a great many graduates. Not everyone has a bank of mum and dad facilitating travel or making a part time job optional.

@mathanxiety - out of interest how old are your DCs? Genuine question. Only 10% of homeowners are under 35 so they must be doing really well to be in that position without any financial help at all.

That's not my point. My point is just that there are 'house styles' for different subjects, whether they're essay writing subjects or not. What's perfectly appropriate for History might be all wrong for Physics. It's not about opinions, but about how you frame yourself as a scholar in the subject. I am probably banging on about this too much, but it is such a crucial issue, and very often it's not taught explicitly. Some students find it really difficult to get to grips with it, IME.

Obviously, having a mum who can do a spelling/grammar check is wonderful and she's a lucky girl, but I am pretty sure, with those marks, that she also learned to write appropriately for her subject. That's different from being able to write articulately in general, IMO.

I agree with this so much. I have two first class degrees in different subjects,not because I worked any harder (in fact I simply couldn't as I had other things taking up my time) but because I worked out what was required by that subject to write a first class standard answer. It felt a bit like a game in a way.

Writing is all about the audience! Who is reading it? What do they need to get from the writing? Is it writing for academia? For someone who knows more then you do? Or an application for a job? Or a letter to a client? Or an explanation of something complex to a lay person? All people who are receiving the written piece want to get something they readily understand, whether an academic or someone quite ordinary! Plus good English and spelling are important.

Maybe this DD didn’t work it out, but that will not stop her getting on well in real life. I totally agree with the pp who started in a lower grade of job and then worked up. It’s obviously the way to go and build up self esteem.

Thing is, a 1st from Manchester Metro or Oxford Brooks is probably equivalent to a 2:2 from Bristol, UCL, Warwick etc. A friend's son got into Ox Brooks with 3 Ds, at A level and has just received a 1st in 'Estate Management' whatever that is. Hilarious considering he never got beyond a 5 at GCSE! As your DD is at a Russell Group uni, probably doing a solid course, I wouldn't worry. The ex Polys are giving out top degrees like they're going out of fashion!

That's true @OMGyoucantbeserious although not all recruiters seem wise to it

But 'writing for academia' isn't a meaningful category.

@SarahAndQuack I think it is if an academic wants it a certain way. I read a few of DDs essays. Very different from how she writes for her job. One was to gain academic marks snd the latter a position statement. Not the same thing at all. Hopefully both using good English though.

Eatate management is land management. It is important but not overly academic. I think mathsanxiety is American so different ideas.

1st in 'Estate Management' whatever that is.

Well, you could look it up.

Gee whizz, I've read some snobbish posts on MN, but you take the prize. I assume you haven't shared these thoughts with your friend.

It's Brookes btw.

It's certainly true that an academic History essay will be different from an academic English essay, for instance, but there are definitely certain overlaps. Students who have done more than one essay subject at A-level should be used to swapping between styles of essay before they head off to uni, but that's not everyone by any means.

"Estate Management" is called "Land Economy" at Cambridge, does that sound better? (I know they're not quite the same, but...)

But it's not about a specific academic rewarding a specific type of writing (or, it really shouldn't be). It's about the fact that writing well for one degree subject could mean writing very badly for another. Often, what's praised at A Level is marked down at degree level. When students don't pick this up (and they're often not taught it explicitly), it can become a real problem.

Many students haven't done more than one essay subject at A level, though, and the styles taught at A Level are often not very like those expected for a degree.

I completely agree. Students are amenable to being told "this is what an essay should look like," and adapt accordingly. When I was at uni (admittedly years ago) nobody ever bothered to explain that, or show me examples. It's a shame that still seems to be the case in many places.

Estate management is a well-established subject @OMGyoucantbeserious , certainly it was around in the late 80s. You can even study it at Cambridge. Oxford Brookes – or Oxford Poly as it then was – was always recognised as an excellent course. As for what it is, it surely isn't that hard to work out – it's a way into working in land and property in either the public or private sector.

Brookes actually has quite a strong reputation in some areas, this being one. Its engineering degrees are also highly prized by the motorsport industry. It's pure snobbery to dismiss it because it's a former poly.

As we've read on this very thread, there is no direct comparison between A level grades and degrees because the teaching and learning styles are so very different – some will be more suited to one than the other. Maybe a lectures/tutorials system suited your friend's son? Or maybe he discovered a subject that really inspired him so worked really hard? Or maybe he came into his own when studying outside the confines of a classroom?

I remember digging out books to learn how to do it. But also soaking up feedback from tutors and also reading journal articles and learning from their style. The information is out there, it's not meant to be spoonfed

The older one is 32 and the younger one is 27. They both did degrees in econ, a subject which tends to lead to better paying jobs.