How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

Also post grad in alot of subjects require minimum 2.1.

That aside, she passed her degree course, when times were obviously difficult and that's a triumph. She not only stuck it out, she passed, well done your DD.

Options to consumer, completely different job, perhaps adult apprentice, look at NHS we live people who have a great work ethic, some are high flyers, others no so much.

Time out to decide what to do. Job in a coffee shop or something maybe.

Or maybe a different degree,

Be proud, she did it, I would be.

When your DD has had the chance to regroup then she might want to consider temporary work via an agency as a route to a permanent graduate job. In my field most clients just ask for honours degree in x. I freelance and twice my agency have asked me to remove my degree class from my client CV as they are trying to place a new graduate at the same time who has lower degree class. Recruitment agents who are on commission are keen to place candidates and could be useful to talk up your DDs other skills if degree class is mentioned.

The marking ban might help your DD as lots of next years graduates won't have complete results when the apply in the autumn.

Get her assessed for ADHD. You can be intelligent and passionate about something but if you’ve got ADHD this can often defeat you at degree level even if you have unwittingly developed coping mechanisms to
manage symptoms at school and produce good results

I, too, was awarded a Third from a Russell Group Uni in 1993. I went straight back to France to work and then Spain, which were my degree subjects and four years later got in to Oxford to complete a PGCE. Some years later, I then completed a MA in Education and Linguistics at a Russell Group Uni and was awarded a Distinction along with a prize for my dissertation. Currently completing a PHD in Education at UCL.

That’s 30 years ago! Times have changed. Getting some form of work might not be an issue. Some employment areas are crying out for staff. I’m not sure if a third is now good enough to teach. Depends how desperate the profession is. Also will depend on degree subject.

My husband is the smartest person I know except possibly his father. He got a 2:2 at UCL after 4As and a B at a level. Reason for it was he spent a large part of every week travelling up north to visit me at my college. He ended up failing a year and had to retake it. All rather a disaster and a disappointment to his family and himself I’m sure.

he still got a PhD program and scholarship and is now a professor in an Ivy League university.

at the end of the day the degree level doesn’t matter much. It’s what she does afterwards. At least it is done with and she can move forward to better mental health and happiness.

Some do, some don't. The main point from this I think, is that this young lady who has already struggled isn't set back any further and is enabled to see the wood for the trees - with mental health, it is so easy to backslide with a setback. I'm a prime example of this, so completely emphasise and this is why I've replied.

She does have options, even if it may not feel that way now. OP, I'm a NHS level 6 apprentice atm - these don't require a degree (you study for one, on the job). Please pm me if your daughter reads this and would like to ask questions. If I don't know, I can usually signpost x

Well getting some form of work is clearly not going to be an issue. There is a labour shortage.

DH is uni lecturer (actually a Reader, tho his undergrad was a pass so lower than a third in a different subject). He tells his students (masters) that what happens at uni will not define their whole life, it’s just a small part of the tapestry they are weaving. Your daughter will find what works for her. She stuck in til the end, got a degree and has a wonderful life ahead of her. She should feel proud, not ashamed. She will shine!

Another anecdote, but I know of a young chap, still a 20 something who got a 3rd and is now doing well in accountancy .

Wishing your dd well.

Professor at RG uni here.
so many otherwise bright students can’t write their way out of a paper bag, and their writing problems are ignored by lazy lecturers/markers, or by postgrad TAs who themselves are poor writers. I’ve seen diligent students get low marks and degrees because of this. When I give harsh feedback related to writing/grammar, explaining that the good ideas are not sufficiently clear, students often complain and get defensive ‘no one has ever criticised my writing before,’ implying I must be mistaken! The secondary school system does not teach critical thinking, critical reading/writing, but is too exam-based. It’s a systemic problem

He got a 2:2 at UCL

How old is he? 2:2 used to be the norm. It has crept up to 2:1 over the last 30/40 years.

@crowisland I actually agree few people write well. My DD does but my son doesn't. He is an economist so thank the Lord for that!

Nowadays most resubmissions and resits are capped at 40% so a bare pass.

OP many degrees have greater weightings on the final year modules and if this is the year she found the hardest it is likely that this further impacted her grade.

Nowadays most resubmissions and resits are capped at 40% so a bare pass.

At my place, the range for the 3rd Class Honours mark is 40-49.

39-30 is a Pass (so not Honours). Below that is a Fail.

Absolutely @crowisland (also a prof at a RG in the humanities). Students complain at "harsh" marking if you just note spelling / grammar errors. And they won't do the work to learn how to write clearly and grammatically. We put on writing workshops, we annotate essays, but .... crickets.

You can of course do well after a third but accept it’s a case of working your way up.

Agreed… I’d be summonsed before but a rather arsey student who called me ‘passive aggressive and borderline rude’ for marking her down from not answering the question. The arrogance was astounding. I think this has been further compounded by higher tuition fees which has created a perception of ‘ im paying for this so should get good grades’. I also noticed that lecturers themselves are mindful of high tuition costs and are faaar more lenient as a result, especially with international students. The amount of essays I marked for international students who could barely write English and was pressured to pass. Ultimately incredibly fair to the students in question who would invariably fall at the final hurdle. I’ve noticed it worse in phds too.

although I would disagree that postgrad TAs are passing the essays in 1st and 2nd year as a reflection of their own poor writing style, I’d say it’s pressure from the department to pass them

I was a lecturer at a Russell group university. A 1st at a non-RG uni is not the same as a 1st from a RG uni....that's why people want to go to them....a 1st means more. Grades are lost through not answering questions correctly and essay writing was taught via feedback. Our essay feedback was sometimes as long as the answer. This can be either welcomed or be overwhelming depending on the student and their openness to the guidance....or critique if that's how they saw it.

RG students are often grammar or private school students. We had some from top European schools whose lifestyle was way above mine. They are different to a lot of other 18-21yr olds. I also was a lecturer in a top 100 uni (not RG)....I would have rather been a student there at that age.

I understand your DD is disappointed...the target is a 1st and the expectation is a first. Interesting at a nonRG most are happy with a 2:1... Like the Olympics really though I guess...only a gold is really valued by top athletes, and RG students are all carried along by that mindset if they are not careful.

I agree it is variable regarding the classification on job applications. Some care some don't. A lot also depends on if it's a training course as some have said here already.

I think you are all making it very clear why employers do not always trust degrees snd must do further tests to ensure grads applying can write appropriately for the job. I mentioned this on a thread and was told my DH, who has experienced issues with grads writing poorly, was employing “the dregs”. Degree classification and uni did not support this. It’s interesting to see uni staff are worried.

It's a real shame that throughout education, teaching how to write a good academic essay often seems to be seen as someone else's job, and it falls through the cracks.

I teach an A-level essay subject which requires clear logical arguments to be presented in a balanced fashion. Students have far more trouble with the style of the essay than the content, and so I've increasingly concentrated on that. But not everyone has the time to do that, in our subject-knowledge-heavy exam system.

I agree. When part of my job was recruiting, I devised a short (5 minute) in-house "test" as part of the interview process, which was ridiculously simple and was basically a simple set of accounts with "spot the error" - no essays, no written answers, just circle the errors. The errors included simple spelling mistakes (such as postige instead of postage), simple addition/subtraction errors (where it said "add" opening stock, "less" closing stock which had been calculated the wrong way round, so no accounting knowledge needed, or adding up a column of figures), and the wrong date (30 February or 31 June!). I'd have expected pretty full marks from an 11 year old, let alone a graduate, but I'd say probably half of applicants didn't even get 50%! Very depressing really.

@Badbadbunny I think, in the past, DH thought all grad engineers were like him!!! It’s only in more recent times that English has become an issue. They always tested engineering “nous” but now always do a relatively straightforward written test too. It seems lots of grads have got great coding skills but other skills have been neglected and are not a negative when awarding degrees. I know others don’t agree and obviously some grads have all the skills but degrees are not the whole picture.

A 1st at a non-RG uni is not the same as a 1st from a RG uni.

Well that depends on the subject. For academic humanities subjects I would probably broadly agree, but some of the more vocational subjects can be just as prestigious at non-RGs.

Like the Olympics really though I guess...only a gold is really valued by top athletes

I live with 2 people who work in sport and they both say this is absolute rubbish. If you're Usain Bolt, maybe, but actually what most top athletes are looking to do is set PBs and they follow a certain process to try to enable them maximise their talent. Look at Zharnel Hughes who obliterated the 30-year-old British 200m record recently while finishing third. Do you think he was disappointed? Was he fuck.

He would prefer a gold medal at any Championship though. Who cares about a British record if you win gold? He wouldn’t. No one else would talk about the time, especially a new British record that’s not world beating, sadly. Let’s hope the winning athletes have peaked this year! In life, that’s quite useful though. Peaking when it matters. Some peak later than others.