How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

It doesn’t matter how it happened, OP. What’s important is how you handle it from now on. Not all careers are dependent on good degrees, she might have to reconsider where she starts, what her non academic attributes are. Many a successful career grew from an entry level job. She needs her confidence salvaging, and to be reassured she hasn’t failed or disappointed you.

Being intelligent and putting in the effort is a great start but there's much more to studying than that. You need to be organised, self confident/brave, creative, have communication skills etc. and above all you need to understand whats required of you. If she's an anxious person with poor mental health her results will suffer.
If she's looking for work now she would be best applying for roles where the training is quite formal and prescriptive as she likely needs more 'mentoring' than others.
She has a degree. That's an achievement.

Is there any chance there could have been a marking mistake in any area?

I'm going years back now but I was told I'd failed my first year at Uni when in fact I'd passed with a high 2:1 and they'd lost most of one of my exam papers. A breakdown of marks would easily highlight if there was an anomaly with particular paper/module.

Anecdotally - a good friend of mine managed to graduate with a third in 2001 after literally attending no lectures and submitting hardly anything - at one point he was told if he just pulled his finger out for one assignment he might be able to tip the balance to a 2:2. He didn't. He was - by his own admission - lazy and disinterested as anything.

I can't imagine an academically able person like your DD putting the level of effort you describe in today and getting a third.

So - I would focus on what you said about her mental health and support her with that, as you are doing. That's what matters.

She's the lowest 10% but the lowest among a group who have all been academically successful to get there in the first place. Presumably the entry requirements required everyone to have AAB type A levels?

Perhaps she struggles in exam format or tries to get absolutely everything into her essays but in doing so fails to make a coherent argument.

If she considered herself to be the lowest among the equivalent of top set at school would she feel better about it?

In the long run, after your first job little attention is paid to the classification. It's more tick you have the degree now onto your experience..

Thirds have always been rare. Three of the cleverest people I knew at university a long time ago all got thirds. They were all unbelievably bright but didn't do the work on their subject that you have to do. They got bored with it. A "gentleman's third" is okay. One works for BIZ in Basel, the other two have fantastic careers working for themselves. I got a first Absolutely no-one cares unless you want to be an academic or do a Phd. A third isn't the bottom classification anyway - that is an "ordinary".

I used to work in graduate recruitment for an international bank. Obviously the 2 day workshops happened before anyone had their results, but I don't think we even looked at the final grades further down the line (as long as the person didn't fail). It was all about the individual, their skills and competencies, and performance at interview etc. Your DD has passed - unless she is aiming for the top top internships I'm sure nobody will even ask what grade she had.

Of course she's disappointed, especially if she did work hard - but if she was struggling with her MH then she did well to finish the course at all. I don't think you can do much except tell her how proud you are that she did see it through, and get her degree, and hopefully she will go on to get a great job and have a fulfilling career.

LMAO. In 1975.

Meanwhile, in the real world, a 3rd is basically useless to someone starting a career in the 21st century.

OP I know you won't like to hear it but a friend of mine got a third, she didn't understand how it happened, but the rest of our friendship group all did. It wasn't that she didn't study, it was that she just couldn't actually do the critical analysis expected of our subject and she genuinely believed she was on the same level as the rest of us.

Every single essay since the beginning of first year had given us an A4 sheet of feedback detailing exactly what was wrong with our work. We had to be proactive and book appointments with tutors for the various modules to get help but those of us who went and got the face-to-face feedback were able to work on our issues and those who spent hours in the library "researching" from 1-2 key texts then wrote their entire essays based on those didn't do very well.

Degrees aren't classified based on final exams, they're the culmination of marks across at least two years of modules and an extended research project with regular supervision meetings. Getting a third is only a surprise to people who refuse to take feedback on board or accept criticism. Often the same people who say they had a lot of "bad tutors" or that they were "misunderstood".

A similar thing happened to a girl who failed on my MSc for similar reasons (she did her undergrad at an ex-poly and couldn't cope with the quality of work expected at a RG uni) and she complained and got nowhere because the uni had given her countless feedback, offered one-to-one support and resubmission opportunities to improve.

Please don't suggest further study to her, don't let her get more into debt for something she's so very unsuited to. Let her call it quits here and find another path for her own sanity and bank balance. She'd be much better off getting on with a career that doesn't need a degree and spending the coming years getting ahead in that than throwing bad money after good on further study.

OP a friend of mine got a 3rd at a Russell group university in English / History. She retrained and got a p/ t degree in child psychology. She is now the head of a kids hospital psych dept. some 20 years later.
There's more than one route to the best outcome.

Did she have to resubmit a lot of work? I'm sure when I was at uni, resubmissions and maybe even late submissions due to mitigating circumstances were capped at 50% (as in you could only be awarded up to a score of 50, which is the cut off for a 2:2 and below 50 was a third).

A 3rd typically means an average of 40-50% and most degree classes are calculated on the average of 2nd and 3rd modules, although in some cases there is greater weight placed on 3rd year results.

Do you know your DD’s results from y2 and is the final award in line with this? If she was averaging a 2.1 in y2 then I might question the final result.
Take a look at each module mark and ask for a mark check if any results are crazily low. The university will have an academic appeals procedure for students to review marks if your DD has any issues with the assessments. Likewise there is probably a mitigating circumstances procedure if your DD has a disability or encountered problems during the year.

I was an A student at A level but really struggled at uni. I was totally overwhelmed and lost. I found the teaching style assumed you knew what was expected and there was little guidance (London uni). I dropped out - so well done dd sticking with it. I forged a way in my career with work experience and proving my abilities on the job. I’m now 40 and doing a pgdip level7 at Exeter uni part time and the support and guidance is amazing. I had a complete wobble last week and my tutor was truly awesome - calm and reassuring. I need the masters for my next step in my career but despite enjoying the learning, I don’t like the stress and huge amount of work I need to do as I work full time and have 3 dc. I’ll be glad when it’s done and can’t look at the whole course, just one assignment at a time, chipping away.

academic learning isn’t for everyone, and at 18-20 may not be right but you can go back later in life. Deep breath, head up and on with the next chapter.

Understandably it seems a big deal now but nobody ever asks you what grade you got in your degree. Best thing she can do is take some time out and improve her MH.

Poor her. This is really rough.

First things first: yes, to get a third she will have done quite badly. Whether or not that's the bottom 10% depends on the university (it's not standardised). Employers are unlikely to care. Ignore the poster who teleported from the 1930s to mention a 'gentleman's third' - this is nonsense.

If she is really keen to know more about why she got this result, there will be procedures for querying it - she should speak to her personal tutor/academic advisor, and might want support from student services.

I've taught students who got the whole range of degrees, including those who never made it to their exams and didn't even get an ordinary (non-hons) degree. I won't lie: it is harder for students who do badly to get the chances they deserve. But the students who do well in employment are almost always the ones who can offer a coherent account of why they are where they are, and how they're going to do great things in the future. A person who can contextualise their degree result - not in a fake-modest 'ooh, I just struggled' sense, but by explaining in a mature way that they were badly suited to x and have now worked to develop that skill - is really valuable.

Loads of employers will want a hard worker - she's got a lot going for her.

This is bollocks. Most professions will use degree classification as their first sift - below a 2:1 will not get you past that stage

There'll be a way through this for her , it's never the end of the world - plenty of people succeed without any degree. What happens next is down to her.

But as to how it happened, only she can know but a few observations

• being physically in the library isn't the same as good focussed studying. I got a first and could barely find my way round the library -i studied in peace in my room.

• she must have had a good idea after year 2 that things weren't going well? Normally those grades contribute. It will be worth looking at her breakdown to see if there were topics she found particularly easy /hard. That will help her learn about herself
• perhaps her mental health was far worse than she felt able to articulate (not a criticism, it can be very hard to speak up)
• working smart is as important as working hard at university. figuring out how to spend your time, how to answer the question etc. I saw people spending ages re-writing lecture notes to be really beautiful and colour coding them pretty colours and all sorts of other essentially time -wasting "work".

I agree with @BiscuitsandPuffin — did your DD not pay any heed to feedback on essays/projects over the years? She will have been offered opportunities to discuss things with her tutor, discuss feedback with her markers/module leaders, offered targeted support etc. I can’t imagine her degree classification came as that much of a surprise…? Not the moment to discuss it now, obviously, and not the end of the world, but maybe a useful learning experience when she’s had time to let it settle and reflect.

One reason thats thirds are unusual is because most students who are struggling with the work will drop out.

What course was your daughter studying?

Nearly all graduate programs will be out of reach but there are plenty of other ways to get a career.

You daughter is clearly bright and able. She wouldn't have got such strong A'levels if she wasn't. Going to university won't have made her less able or less bright.

She could try for teaching but she should only do this if she is truly interested!

Also she could find a job to do with finance and then start on accountancy tax etc exams. She would probably have to start with a lower paying bookkeeping/accounts type job but she could work her way up. She might have to find her exams herself which she wouldn't if she were on a grad scheme but it's still doable.

If I were her I'd own the third and be as honest as she can about it. It's not exactly unusual to have a difficult time at Uni.

I know it's not the same but one of my DC dropped out of their masters and worked in a shop for six months instead while she regrouped. She was worried about how it would be received by employers. In the end it didn't see to make any difference at all and gave her plenty to talk about in interviews. The interviewers seemed to embrace the story.

You daughter might be thinking she has ruined her future but she really hasn't. As the parent of 4 kids in their late 20s and early 30s it's interesting to watch how all of their friends have found work. They have friends with all sorts of different stories and they've all, without exception, found something.

Not referencing properly , not researching adequately , not presenting arguments effectively

I'm baffled by all the posters saying that you don't get asked about degree qualifications. You most certainly do if you are newly out of Uni.

I wouldn't worry though. She has passed her degree. Some caterers ask for a minimum of a 2-1 (teaching for example). But others just want a degree

Same.. Just achieving a degree has been what all my employers have looked for.

Not according to myself and several other posters experiences.

I assume it depends on what career you are going into on whether they care what degree classification you have

FWIW, there are a lot of posts suggesting that 10% of students get a third (or that students getting a third won't be in the bottom 10% as there will be other students who got lower degrees, failed, or dropped out).

Fairly few students get third class degrees; it will vary from university to university, but at most Russell Group universities (the OP's term, not mine), fewer than 10% of those graduating will graduate with a third. Often it's more like 3-5%. The figure of 10% likely does include those who dropped out or ended with a failure or an ordinary degree.

@QueefQueen80s You username suggests you might not be 'newly out of uni' Which was the group I said would be asked for their degree classification. H I guess if degrees are totally irrelevant to the job they won't be asked)