How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

In terms of how you can come away with a third, obviously just not performing well in exams is the main cause, but another thing we sometimes see in humanities is someone who takes risks that don't pay off. In Oxford humanities degrees traditionally (less so now since it has been researched and steps taken to address it), women got disproportionately more 2:1 and 2:2, men got disproportionately more 1sts and 3rds. A large part of it seems to have been that women would be more likely to play it safe and write essays along the lines of 'some people argue x; other people argue y; on balance the evidence is stronger for ...' whereas men were more likely to argue their own opinion forcefully. Sometimes it paid off and they were awarded high marks, but when it didn't they hadn't really left any room for nuance so they'd get very low marks. The women's strategy was lower risk - lower reward. Obviously some women naturally favoured the more 'masculine' style and vice versa, which is why it might be applicable to your daughter.

That might not be why. But if a student comes to me with unexpectedly low grades, it's one of the things I'd consider and I'd want to see their writing style to look for it.

I agree with pp that your daughter's first steps should be to ask for the degree transcript with the breakdown of marks, and to talk to the tutor who knows her work best about whether this seems reflective of her general performance or not.

Fink this could so easily have been DD. Her additional learning needs and accompanying MH issues could easily have resulted in her blowing one or more papers. This was compounded by what she herself described as her "unique perspective" in some papers. Fortunately the risk appears to have paid off with some seriously good marks but it could so easily have gone the other way. Just waiting for some stray marks & exam board confirmation now.

OP I would encourage her to look for a job which will boost her confidence. This could lead into a L7 apprentice once she has proved her skills and determination to an employer. There is a whole world beyond graduate training schemes. Sort her mental health and confidence out as a priority.

It is easy to get in the way of thinking that because you are spending time revising, that you will be ok. I spent ages photocopying every research paper on every reading list. There was no way I could assimilate that much material, although I tried!

I never took the mental step back and thought about what it was important I knew, or important themes, or what my subject was actually about.

I was "very bright" in school, high IQ and good grades.

But in uni, it's not about regurgitating everything you know but answering specific questions and referencing properly etc. I really struggled in an undergrad course and came out with a pass (not even a 3rd).

But when I went back years later to do a taught masters, the lecturers there explained referencing and how they wanted assignments written (which was never done in the undergrad). The other aspect was I was more used to discussing a problem and putting forward not just the theory but discussing my conclusions and why I was recommending certain courses of action so I was better able to put that into my essays.

And "despite" my poor degree result, I am now a very senior manager in my sector. As I had an ability to get my head down and get on with things.

Sort her mental health and confidence out as a priority.
Absolutely this.

The two people I knew who got thirds didn't work hard, skipped a lot of lectures, and had to take resits at the end of second year which were then capped at 40%.

I think it's unlikely (maybe not impossible, but unlikely) that your daughter worked as hard as she says she did, although in her case her mental health struggles could have been a valid reason for that.

She'll be ok though. I'm still in touch with one of the friends mentioned above and he's earning far more than me even though I got a much better degree.

It is possible due to the strikes that this is a provisional degree grade and not based on all her marks. A 3rd means she scored between 40-50% overall. If she has had to do any resits these are capped at 40% and would have brought down her marks. The summer resit exam season is happening now, so this implies she passed everything in year 3 or she wouldn't have graduated? Year 3 is weighted more heavily than year 2 and I would suggest she checks what has been marked for year 3, If it is her correct final mark, she would probably find it very difficult to get a graduate entry level job as most of these require either a 2:1 or a 2;2 with a Masters degree, she may have to start lower and work her way up (40% of graduates don't start in graduate level jobs anyway). Has she been assessed for any SEN eg ADHD? (often missed in women) .Good luck to your daughter and I hope she manages to find a good path to follow.

Put simply, she wasnt doing any effective study. Quite probably because of her mental health problems. I was a top grade student but went through the same thing in my second year, was very depressed, hated my modules and barely scraped a 2.2 that year. (Fortunately i pulled it together in my last year and got a first which averaged out at a 2.1). But in that second year, because of my mental health i just was not capable of learning and studying effectively, and my judgment was off too.

It is what it is. The best thing you can do is not rake over it and be positive, look for new options rather than dwelling on what is lost

Having a degree was relevant, it shows hard work and dedication. The grade was never asked.
But I take your point it might be different with new graduates

I graduated 2007 and still in jobs get asked about degree but not the grade.

With the expansion of student numbers, grad schemes do ask for degree classification. However there are jobs that won’t care. So obviously some jobs are out of bounds but not all.

I'm sorry that your daughter worked hard and didn't get the result she wanted, but she's still got a degree. My husband and his siblings didn't go to uni, they all have very good jobs and are better paid than my siblings who did (my brother has a master's). Unless you're going into a profession where a degree is required, it probably won't make any difference whether it's a first or a third and for the most part it won't make much difference if it is a job where you need a degree. I hope she can be proud of her achievement

Quite simply, it will depend on the sector she is going for. I work in a sector that even my A levels are scrutinised. I went off the rails at that age and definitely didn't meet my potential and only got into uni because I made a good impression at interview and had a year's experience in the sector before going to uni. I got a first class honours, then a distinction in my MA and have 10 years experience with exceptional results portfolio and very high percentages in all my professional exams, but my a levels have been noted as the reason for not taking me through to interview on more than one occasion. Equally, our training programme advertises you only need a 2:2 but realistically we won't employ below a 2:1.

Just an FYI, a lot of universities have been on marking strikes due to pay and it has massively impacted on some students overall grades. Many have submitted appeals based on the unfair grading they have received. Could this be part of the reason perhaps?

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/talks-fail-to-end-marking-boycott-as-thousands-of-university-students-graduate-without-grades-12921088

Has she submitted mitigation to the uni, explaining her health issues? Can't promise it will help, but worth a try.

FWIW, I've got a 3rd, finished after my son passed away. For a lot of workplaces, they don't even look at the grading - for instance a first doesn't guarantee aptitude in a job role. Clinical jobs are a prime example of this - I'm a podiatry apprentice now and my mentor is an amazing clinician, beloved by patients. She openly admits her grading was low, but believe me, she's got so much more going for her than my more academically inclined colleagues.

It is a body blow, and shock but please tell her that she still passed, even with everything going on x

.

Blimey she has a degree! All these negative comments! She has achieved much more than most of the population (ONS states that 33.8% have a level 4 qualification or above) and she can still have a shining future. tell her well done.

I got a 2.2. Not because I didn’t study my arse off, but because I had to do three jobs all the way through to pay for my course and living expenses. Que sera. I’m very successful and have a senior job in the top 10% of salaries in the UK. I worked hard, no one ever asked me what grade I got, they just wanted to know I had a degree. Tell her not to worry, it wouldn’t bother me if I employed her.

Lots of firms would not offer an aptitude test I’m afraid. A third classification degree holder would just be discarded. Plus, years ago, far fewer people had degrees and a majority had 2:2. As a result a third wasn’t a barrier. Times have changed. Therefore type of job will matter. However feeling better is the immediate goal. Maybe accepting uni didn’t work out and seeing careers about options. Believe it or not, DD has a degree, but looked to a career change, and was offered an apprenticeship. She didn’t take it but these opportunities are there. You just have to accept they are not likely to be degree level work or pay to start with. Working up is perfectly ok though.

Also I don’t know why firms or courses say they will take a 2:2 when in reality they don’t. Less sifting if you are honest.,

She sounds like she did the very best she could do with what she had and there is no shame in that. If she was struggling I’m sure she did not feel like going to lectures but she went, did not feel like revising but she did , did not feels like doing exams but she did. That shows great character and any employer would be lucky to get someone with such tenacity.

She will have known she was in line for a third. You don't just get a third on exams alone. I think you should put some thought into why she couldn't share this with you. Because if she couldn't do that then there nay be other things. But not to worry! I bombed out of uni second year. It's not for everyone. There are loas of amazing apprenticeships now that she could do and as she's already studied at a higher level. I worked and studied and that suited me much better. I now am a Directoer earning over £100,000 per annum. Uni isn't everything.

Uni is a mile
away from school and my A* student struggled to begin with to get they essays right as it’s totally new .
alao final year I believe is a lot about your thesis and it’s a big piece of work with long deadlines and not much interaction with the lecturers. If she also had MH issues this would have been made much harder for her if she wasn’t supported .

It’s sadly not about how hard she worked but how close to the mark scheme she was .

did she have any resits in yr 2 ? Because those are all capped at 40% unless you have extenuating circumstances granted .

I do feel that Uni can be quite hard to navigate especially on the arts and humanities side with very little f2f and lots of self directed learning . The help is there but only if you know where to ask and actually ask .

Head of an academic department in a university here.

success at a’levels is not always a measure of success in HE, it’s a very different way of working on top of adjusting to a new way of living. Your DD would also had teacher assessed grades in 2020 (assuming she didn’t take a gap year or sandwich degree) so there may have been some grade inflation.

There are a myriad of reasons why she might not have done as well - as previous posters have identified - but ultimately in my experience very few students are entirely honest with their parents about what happens at university and their dedication to their studies.

Putting all that to one side this is not a disaster and does not mean she will not go on to have a successful career. Despite MH issues she stuck it out and has been an awarded a degree so her perseverance is to be admired, if I were giving her advice I would be saying to take time to regroup and think about what she would like to do next.

I got a third. I was terrible at writing assignments. I knew my stuff, but just couldn’t translate it into an assignment. I did really well in presentations and exams, but we were mainly judged on assignments.
I have a good job that pays well and it’s exactly what I studied for.

I think the most in important point now is that it is not the end of the world.

She can re group, get some experiences under her belt and then plan. I have seen people have exceptionally good careers just through starting with an entry level job and throwing everything at it and keeping going for promotions as they arose.

(And I say that as someone with an excellent degree, but really all that did was open more doors, the rest was down to hard work in the work place. I have seen people with brilliant qualifications flounder as they think they are entitled to success)

I know someone who got a third from Oxford. They struggled all the way through the course tbh. They became an EXCELLENT teacher - much better than another teacher I know who got a First. The skills you need for jobs aren't always the same skills that get you a first.