Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

Just wanted to support and sympathise the thread starter. Being bilingual myself, I feel sorry that I do not speak at least one more language. My children are going to be trilingual and I am very happy about it. Having worked myself in international companies and different countries, I could tell that knowledge of foreign language really helps in the career. I actually came across a few native English speaking colleagues, who have done A levels in French, Russian and Spanish (in various combinations), and who had such a stratospheric career. MFL was additional to their main profession.
One of my DDs has done MFL at A-Level. When we went around to look at the state and independent schools before her 6th form, I found out that the MFL classes are usually very small. 2-6 students in most of them. I agree that its rather depressing. Maybe some nationwide program is needed to encourage students to study foreign languages.
Good luck to those who is applying to MFL course at the Universities! My advice is to apply to the very top universities if you have good grades.

Another problem is that the UK school system requires students to drop so many subjects and only take 3 A level subjects.

In Germany every student has to include maths, science and a foreign language until age 18.

Many students might like to continue learning a language, but with only 3 subjects that becomes very difficult for many!

My own children managed to include a foreign language as a fourth A level, but that may not suit other students.

Following on from whether MFL was in demise across all schools, I looked at a handful of schools in the local area, across both sectors and found a real mix bunch. As an example, whilst only anecdotal, I was surprised at SPGS having maximum 6 students sit french and spanish respectively, with the highest number sitting mandarin at 7. They clearly have a wide MFL dept offering additional german, italian, russian but with only 3 obvious language students on their uni destinations for 2022, though there may be more incorporated in the liberal arts takers across UK/US. I am also assuming there would have been a combination of native and non-native students in that mix given the location.

DD did spanish A level with 13 takers (most native) so higher than many schools. Her UK peers in Ireland have come from, in the main, the state sector where they were fortunate, like her to have a supportive MFL dept, and are in her programme with great combinations of study such as German/Turkish, French/Arabic, Spanish/Arabic, German/Hebrew etc, as well as those in the traditional MFL JH streams. There are over 100 spanish students alone in freshers year. There is a substantial number of students on all the MFL language courses from the EU outside of Ireland, partly because of Brexit but also because they rate the MFL provision alongside being in an english speaking uni. The remainder student mix is US, as they are there either on the dual BA program (with Columbia) or partnered with the uni on their semester/year abroad.

Hi. Found this thread whilst researching grammar schools in the UK. Can someone share any insights or thoughts on MFL teaching in state grammar schools? I know this is a broad qs, we are aiming to get DS into state super selective in Kent. Will we need to supplement with private tutors or do schools normally have sufficient teaching staff and support for the students?

@purpledotty I think you have nailed why the skills acquired on a MFL degree are important now. It’s really not all about the languages in the job market. The skills acquired on a MFL course lead to all sorts of jobs. Using the MFL is not the only source of work. Years ago when posters did MFL, the world was different.

Also students don’t have to study a subject then continue with it to a job do they? How would that work for history or sociology and for huge numbers studying psychology?

I think dc see MFLs as too difficult and many don’t see the value. Schools don’t offer the MFL A levels and university departments close. Use it or lose it I guess!

When DD was looking at courses for this autumn, she found a lot of languages are taught at two or three levels on joint/combined degrees (beginner, intermediate, advanced/bi lingual) - some required another language to at least GCSE level, but not all. Feels quite a healthy approach. Also found a lot of univs very much push the option of language modules even if not formally part of the degree; these modules can be credit bearing or not, through the various language centers.

While this thread is up top, might as well ask a question about MML degrees and the year abroad. Are Erasmus schemes still open to students at UK Universities who have dual UK/EU passports? And even if not, does an EU passport mean that you dodge the visa fees and work permits that Brexit has bestowed?

@Rhinoc i believe so to the second question - DD is a duel passport holder and has been told it makes things much simpler for the year abroad (if going to an EU country)

At the state comprehensive I teach in we have clung on to 4 languages and then 3 at A level. This is as good as any private school provision. Sadly, though, where a private school won't axe a subject because of low uptake, a state will. So nearly every state provision in my area has axed its A levels and only offers one GCSE. The private school continues its provision but on A level class sizes of 1.

@KBBuniv Thats to keep staff employed but it’s hardly the full literature, culture and on with study of a MFL degree. It’s pretty basic.
@expatinmys Why not look at what the schools offer? Might change of course but my DD had no extra tuition. Depends if MFLs are your thing or not.

How interesting to see my old thread resurrected. As you may well have read, Kent uni (always a solid option for our BBC students) is now poised to scale back on MFL too. So sad

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-68338108.amp

And, to depress us all even further, Aberdeen uni announced similar since I started this thread

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/22567/

there are other unis in the pipeline too.

i WISH the incoming Labour government would restore Erasmus but no signs so far and unlikely

I am glad your thread was resurrected, OP.

I am a STEM academic in a subject of perceived national need, and I could not agree with you more wholeheartedly. When we lose strong MFL and Arts programmes, we as a society are poorer for it.

If it is any consolation - and I accept that it may not be - the same shortsighted highly functional perspective that has led to the MFL and Arts closures is affecting STEM programmes also, though much less drastically. Students are getting a more immediate, functional type of education almost everywhere. I don’t mean they are doing more of the sexy bells-and-whistles stuff - use of equipment, group work (which IMO is the devil except when groups consist uniformly of students with good work ethics, then it can be brilliant), etc. These tools can be used with any curriculum. I mean our STEM programmes are less about education and more about training than they were even 10 years ago.

But that’s backwards. Training needs will always change. Well educated people can adapt, that is the point. People who don’t understand first principles will be groping in the dark. We used to care deeply about the distinction, but we are losing that and to me it is in the same vein as the problems with MFL and the Arts. I appreciate that academic livelihoods are not (yet) at stake for the most part, although a couple of Pure Maths Groups have closed.

All deeply depressing

Where is the school based in the UK as in which region? Does it matter which region the school is in, does it differ from region to region for the MFL provision? Is MFL teaching and the general funding for it better in state grammar schools?

No, I don't think it makes any difference by region.

At the end of the day expat, the underfunding of state schools is catastrophic.. Often , grammar schools are actually worse off financially. Any school budgeter will have to make tough decisions about staffing and curriculum (and other costs but staffing is the biggest expenditure). There is a national downturn of the popularity of languages (this is not a new thing) ; couple this with school budget crises and schools will not run small subjects.

I don't live in a grammar area but I would imagine any grammar school , or indeed high achieving state school, will try to keep MFL going- but they can't justify the staffing costs for so few students very easily.

It's really sad. The knock on effect is the unis cutting languages as per the OP.

Thanks for your response. So I guess even if attending a super selective grammar school there is a good chance they we will have to tutor our DS for some MFL subjects or find an alternate teaching option outside of school?

You'll have to contact the schools, but bear in mind you may not get a very straight answer.

How many MFLs are you planning on them doing?? Most schools now offer two (not including Latin), some three .

We were aiming for 3. French Arabic and German. Arabic as we are in the middle east and we are planning to get tutors to get them more fluent or trained up. French we have an online tutor and possibly enrolling into the French language institute here. German, they started in a language school then stopped but we have a tutor. Not sure if it is easy to find language schools around the Kent area / sevenoaks if we wanted to continue with the same strategy in the UK.

Argh my child is going to Sheffield to do a MFL not good to read it’s declining 🥲

@poetryandwine I think you have hit the nail on the head. It’s not new for people to think a MFL degree is about training for a role. However translation is a lonely job and mostly done by computers. So
in my view, unis that offer fewer cultural and literary options are not serving students well but I’m also aware that’s what students want. It’s very limited in outlook because it’s the other skills that graduates will largely need.

Sheffield offers lots of MFLs but if you choose three, the cultural and literature modules in y1 are very limited. It’s a course that builds up to y3 and honing languages further abroad . Their Italian was non degree level in 2009 when dd looked and still is language only and look at the breadth of culture and literature available there!

MfL students do have a higher proportion from independent schools and as fewer and fewer state schools take MFL seriously, this will mean unis stop teaching a full MFL degree and just do it as an add on. Back in the day my school friend went to Kent for MFL - she got very high grades for the 70s and had a glittering FO career.

I'm not sure this is the fault of state schools tizer! What do you want them to do with their poverty of funding and the wider British antipathy to language learning?

@expatinmys I would look carefully at the school prospectus/website.

IME, a school offering three different MFLs doesn’t usually mean a student can study all three - and while French is widely available, even German is less widely taught, and Arabic would be highly unusual, though some schools might offer it.

My DC’s school (comp) offers 2 MFL. You start with one in Y7 (no choice over which, the year group just get split down the middle) then get the chance to take up the second (but keep the first) in year 9, but you have to drop something else as otherwise there isn’t time in the day. My DC dropped art and DT to start a second MFL in Y9, and take both for GCSE. They encourage at least one MFL GCSE, probably about 15 kids a year (out of 300 odd) take both.

At nephew’s school (grammar) 3 MFL are available. Choice of French or Spanish in Y7, then in Y8 you can either carry on the one you started, or swap it for Italian. But you can’t do both, only one MFL GCSE can be taken.

At niece’s school (all-girl’s comp) there’s just 2 languages offered, you start both languages (French and German) from Y7, and then can keep doing both all the way to GCSE, or drop just one - an MFL GCSE is compulsory.

So in my family, only the comprehensive schools offer two MFL GCSEs, but the grammar does have a wider range and slightly more choice.

I don’t know any dc in my circle not in private school with the chance to study 3, and even in private schools the third is usually Latin.

@Piggywaspushed All schools, including primary, need to take it more seriously. It’s inevitable it’s being left to independents to offer 2 MFL at A level but then we cannot complain at the larger numbers of private school dc on the uni courses. Schools make it way more difficult for students who are good at MFL than they do for any stem subject.