Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

Posted in wrong forum - will repost in staffroom. Apologies (but will still monitor replies here)

So sad.
I did languages at uni and think it's so important.
Can I ask what is the difference between this Erasmus and Turin thing? It was Erasmus when I was at uni

Turing is the post-Brexit UK govt alternative to the EU's Erasmus scheme. I'm sure others who are actually trying to use it will explain the pros and cons better than me but I believe it's not as generous or easy to use as Erasmus.

It is a real shame. I loved my French A level and we had a relatively big class. My DD, currently in Year 11, is pretty definitely going to take French next year. I have to say though I'm a little concerned about the understanding that the top grades go to native speakers. She's an able student and will likely be aiming at A/ A star in her subjects. This must have played a part in putting some students off taking it. Have you found the top grades hard to achieve, in relation to other subjects?

@MFLresearch
Sheffield University languages haven’t been great for years. DD looked at MFLs there to start in 2010 and they had already dropped Italian as part of joint honours. Also don’t forget more MFLs are taken in independent schools. Sheffield doesn’t recruit many of them. That will ensure there are problems.

Post 92 universities (when they were polytechnics and colleges of HE) never did much MFL. In their previous lives these universities were more alighted to work courses. MFL was nearly always done at the new universities set up in the 60s or much earlier. We will probably revert to that.

The only slightly good news is that you don’t need a string of As to get to a very good university to study MFL. The offers for some students are BBC at Bristol for example! So every half decent student can go but Turing is a big issue. Not for deprived students! For the just about managing parents. It’s dire.

We are now required to teach MFL from ks2 onwards. However, this was pushed through with minimal training for teachers and is often left to a computer based system (I can’t think what the French one is called, it has a dragon called Bof!).

A recent survey showed that MFL is the area in which primary teachers feel they have least knowledge of the curriculum. I totally understand this as so many of us trained before this requirement came in, many don’t have qualifications in MFL (and even if they do, an a level in German isn’t all that helpful if your school/ MAT teaches Spanish). I’m lucky, I have an a level in French and we teach French.

I think this is just indicative of how MFL is regarded by the Government . Lip-service is paid to improving the situation in schools, but not the underpinning to really do something positive and long term.

DS didn’t do a language at GCSE, now has private lessons in Japanese alongside his a level studies. I’m thrilled he took these up (as a result of his GCSEs being cancelled, but I’m not bothered about how it came about).

I don't have any professional experience, but as a parent of 19 and 17 year olds, with most of my friends having DCs of the same age, I don't know a single student who has taken an MFL at A level let alone started a a degree. I took A level French at night school after I had done my degree and it has really been useful, I do feel very concerned about both the loss of MFL teaching and the loss of the experience of placements abroad, exchange visits etc that go hand in hand.

I despair. It's all part of the little Britain, inward looking mentality. My DSs did three MFL GCSE at a strong state school, one did languages at uni, and now, after Erasmus (and Turing is an atrocious replacement, by the way) the world, or at least parts of Europe, is his oyster because he is properly bilingual. It's not just about the ability to speak a language but also to adapt to different cultures. Never mind, I presume the posh boys will still have the opportunities ... although what are the stats on MFL in private schools? Maybe they are just too hard for those with a 10" attention span.

DD is one of 2 in her A level class (state 6th form) and has 5 uni offers including Durham that responded in super quick time! I assume due to them not being over subscribed. She doesn't know anyone else applying for an MFL degree either.

She was also frustrated that at an offer holders day a prospective student admitted to being fluent in the main language she was taking (lived there with her Mum)!

We are fortunate that we can financially support DD but I can imagine the year abroad funding issue is putting people off.

I don't know what the answer is. DD is adamant she doesn't want to go into teaching having helped in their GCSE classes and was horrified at how bad they were!

Definitely sounds from Tizzor's post that it will turn into a "posh boys" Subject. It's a real shame isn't it 😔. I guess they'll be the ones to afford to holiday abroad too at the rate we're going so we really are becoming more insular. So many far reaching consequences of Brexit...

MFL study is declining for various reasons. For a start so many native speakers take the formal exams that it makes it hard for non native speakers to access the top grades.

But the reality is that they're pretty pointless in today's world where our native language is English and it is widely spoken across the world plus there are so many communication tools available. It's the harsh reality I'm afraid and it isn't going to change now.

I didnt even realise the yr abroad was compulsory/unfunded. I caught myself thinking " just as well mine don't want to do languages" which is sad in itself. We still aren't sure how much we'll be able to help at uni in general!

I agree it's an awful situation and can only get worse.

On the plus side, my DD's MAT applied to the Turing scheme and received funding to take the entirety of year 6 to France. We don't have to pay a penny - and they are all very excited!!!!

What are the career prospects like? Is technology replacing some options?

Post 92 universities (when they were polytechnics and colleges of HE) never did much MFL

I studied French with Business Studies at a poly back in the late 80s. I chose that course because it covered a much more practical French course than universities did at the time with lots of translating and interpreting. French at unis back then was very literature focussed (as were A levels). The poly also offered the opportunity to take AIL exams - degree equivalent- which most of us died on top of the poly course. Our degrees were underwritten by the local uni as polys weren't allowed to award degrees in their own name back then.

I don't remember any special finding for our year abroad either, though it was back in the days of grants, not loans. Most of us got jobs in industry in France with businesses that the poly had forged relationships with (eg Renault) and earned enough to pay our own way for the year.

Wow catsnore!!! That beats the 2 nights pgl here. My secondary aged child has never been abroad with school.

I studied MFL at Sheffield and had a great time, I loved my department, which was well-regarded at the time. So it was upsetting to read how they're scaling everything back, which will presumably put off many potential students.

I later spent a few years living and working in a city in the EU (in which many people spoke little or no English). Again, I loved it and would have stayed forever, although personal reasons meant I had to return to the UK. If I wanted to do this now, I wouldn't be able to due to Brexit. In fact my daughter, who was born there, wouldn't be able to either. Neither of us have an Irish grandparent 🙄

I do find it all very depressing. It does feel like a lot of people have a very insular mentality in England. There also definitely seems to be a message that STEM are the only subjects worth studying, MFL are pointless, the arts are pointless (but, oh dear, the scientists are getting screwed over by Brexit and loss of EU funding too... )

@user73 My languages certainly have not been “pointless” either in my professional career (commercial barrister) or personally. Why would it be pointless to be able to read, write, converse in more than one’s native language? Is it pointless to study history because it’s all in the past? Literature because it’s fiction not fact?

@MFLresearch I know you didn’t mean to post on this board, but I agree completely. I have a teenaged DD with a flair and passion for language and languages, but what a shame that opportunities and uptake are declining so markedly.

If you take the view that any degree that isn't directly vocational is pointless, that knocks out a lot more degrees than just MFL, eg history, English literature, philosophy, film studies, politics, religious studies. I know there are those out there who think that studying anything is pointless if the knowledge acquired can't directly be monetised.

I speak three languages fluently. I have no issue with speaking languages.

But today's students need to be able to access top grades in their study and that is increasingly difficult with modern languages exams since the world is a far bigger place and there are far more native speakers studying in the UK. As a result it's harder for English native speakers to access the top grades in a MFL at A Level and at degree level.

In their previous lives these universities were more alighted to work courses.

No they weren’t. I was at Manchester Polytechnic. I did an art a design degree, my bf at the time electronic engineering, someone else did History of Art. Loads did English/History/ etc.

Agree! MFL, lots of native speakers getting top grades which you need to get into top uni. This is why some secondary London all girls schools, you find over 80% are bilingual. They can claim high marks in A levels….in a MFL..due to being native speaker. Harder for those hard working students that don’t speak language at home or go to families in those locations.

We live in Wales and all students here now have to take compulsory Welsh at GCSE level. I think this is a massive deterrent for kids taking other languages. They I only have 3 options to then choose at GCSE which means most will not take another language.
My daughter loves languages and was in the last year that our school offered French as a GCSE. They now only offer Spanish with no languages at all at a-level in our school or any of the cluster schools in the area. For my daughter (and 2 of her classmates) to continue with French as a-level we had to find a local college that was offering it and along with the other parents, had to fight hard to get the school to work with the college so that the girls could work between the two. I now drive the girls between school and college (and back) twice a week.
There was at least a handful of other kids who would have liked to take a language a-level but couldn’t really face the hassle that we had to go through. I don’t think we are the only people around the country with this issue.
As others have said, I’m very concerned to hear about the high grades being difficult to obtain. I was not aware of this. My daughter and her friends are straight A/A* students, it would be a real shame if they could not achieve this in their languages.
My daughter is in year 12 so we are just looking at unis now. It’s a minefield!

As others have said, I’m very concerned to hear about the high grades being difficult to obtain. I was not aware of this. My daughter and her friends are straight A/A students, it would be a real shame if they could not achieve this in their languages.*

Based on the experience of my own DC (both of whom are doing MFL degrees) and their peers, and also a family member who teaches French to A level, I think the notion that it's incredibly difficult for a non-native speaker to get an A* at A level gets somewhat exaggerated on the Mumsnet Higher Education threads, at least in the case of French and Spanish which are still widely taught in schools notwithstanding declining numbers overall. I can well imagine the picture may be different for A levels such as Arabic, where my guess would be that the vast majority of A level candidates will probably have had some level of exposure to the language at home.