Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

DD3 is one of two kids doing German A-level in her year (L6th). DD2 took it last year (class of four, none of them bilingual, all got A or A*). Numbers for French and Spanish are similar at their school, but their 6th form is small.

Looking at leavers’ destinations, not many go on to do straight MFL but combined degrees are popular, eg History and French - all of DD2’s German class are doing German in some form at uni, for example. DD2 is doing Law with German Law so will have to spend her third year at a German uni. They talked about funding at the open day, and the head of department said the cost was actually similar to what it would be for the year at home, so they apply for maintenance loan in the normal way. Now I’m hoping that’s true!

I hear your pain OP. I did French A level and spent my third year (law and French) having an amazing experience as an Erasmus student. My DCs are both doing French and Spanish GCSEs. And one is intending to do French and possibly Spanish for A level. I really hope he’ll have the opportunity to study abroad. He’s lucky to have an EU passport. Bloody Brexit. Was told at work that I need “a letter of invitation “ to attend a routine meeting in Brussels…. Just extra hassle,and tip of the stupid Brexit iceberg disaster.

@TizerorFizz

"It would be a very bland student who really couldn’t find interesting options."

Or universities could be very bland in their promotion of these courses and that's why they are failing.

Given she's worked all over the world now and is fluent in French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian and currently resident in Barcelona running major events I don't think it was a bad move myself.

@Pearfacebananapoop
if you look at any decent mfl department at a good university, they will list possible options. They might be medieval literature of the crusades through to film or politics. Anyone with a little research can see what might be available to them. They key is to discount the universities that offer little because they only link MFL to business. I’ve never seen a dull presentation on a university web site that has a good MFL offering. Why would they make it dull? They are competing for students! Also a decent MFL student will do the research!

The simple fact is that students don’t want the academic rigour of studying literature. All they want is language. That can be provided but it’s hardly a vibrant MFL offering. Students who went more, get more.

I'm an MFL graduate (from a whole ago!) and think the decline esp in the mainstream state sector is a huge pity.

My personal view is that the insistence on so much science as compulsory options makes it really hard for for many children to take more than one at GCSE.

Having seen one of mine go through senior school and another half-way through, the current GCSE syllabus seems really dull and not very inspiring. I did mine in the mid-80s admittedly but avoided the endless writing and reading passages on social media and recycling!

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow Regarding former polytechnics: they were established to provide a degree route to work. Hence electronic engineering and art design were exactly what they offered. They were set up in the 60s. Since they became post 92 universities many expanded to include History and English etc to soak up demand. Their original remit was not these generalist degrees. They did loads of day release HE courses too. The poly I went to was very work focussed with many lecturers coming from industry and business. You still wouldn’t expect academic MFL courses at a post 92 university. Just not enough students to go round.

Another poster asked about jobs drying up for MFL grads! Why? The vast majority are not directly employed for MFL expertise in translation. MFL gives you are wide variety of skills but too many people seem to think the courses are purely vocational. Clearly the academic ones give students many options for careers which are not based on translation or even speaking the MFLs.

I know why they were established. But there were plenty doing Maths and other just normal academic courses. This was in the mid 80’s. I lived with a load of English students.

They were established in the 60s. Demand meant they expended. However rarely into
mfl degrees. Where MFL is available now, the post 92 universities tend to link their MFL provision to business needs. Therefore not really academic MFL degrees. The elite universities have a very different offering for MFL. Which you would expect. Few of them require AAA though. So top grades just are not needed. I do think there’s a great need to persuade linguists to do 2 MFL A levels and that schools should offer 2 MFLs at gcse. It really hampers bright linguists to reduce options. We offer more and more science but MFL is greatly reduced and it’s not in the interests of linguists.

My first degree is in modern languages and I'm qualified to teach them to A level, though I'd need to do a refresher to understand the post-Gove theories of teaching approach.

Only twice have I been offered jobs that were anything to do with being able to speak languages other than English. To be brutally honest, MFL are never going to be much of a viable option now in a country where the mother tongue is still the main language for the rest of the world, mainly due to American expansion and the history of the British Empire. This especially applies to European languages now we've been forcibly seceded from the EU...and yes, I get SD and furious about it too. I often wish I'd just studied what I wanted to, not what I was best at while at school. It would have made no difference to my job prospects and I'd have been happier.

FGS, * get sad not SD. Ruddy autocorrect.

I agree with Tizer. Speaking/writing the language fluently is an important, but relatively small part of an MFL degree.
I think it made up less than a third of my final grade when I studied MFL.

You’re really studying a different culture, and the language skills are just your way in, so you can get to your original sources.

As a teen applying for MFL degrees, I wasn’t fully on board with the idea of literature at first. But then I actually started studying literature in the original languages at university level, and realised why it’s such a fundamental part.

Fluency in a language can trickle away easily through lack of use, but you are still left with the actual skills you gained through degree level study. MFL degrees give a huge range of skills that employers value, over and above the ability to speak another language or two.

My DD is studying 2 languages at GCSE and hoping to study both at A Level. I’d love it if she carried on and did an MFL degree. I think they are so interesting, so much fun, as good for your career as any humanities degree (and realistically, she is never going to be a scientist).
It’s such a shame if people are put off them because they think the higher grades are harder. That shouldn’t be what university education is about!

I meant to add, I think it’s true that reduced MFL offerings at schools will have a knock-on effect at degree level.
If you’re starting a language from scratch at university, of course a lot more modules/time will be taken up by intensive language learning, leaving less time for cultural modules.

My DD’s school teaches both French and Spanish, but most people do one or the other. The school gives the option at age 13 to pick up the second one, but most students don’t. Maybe 15% of the year group. About 50% of the year group will do one MFL GCSE. About 5% will do two.
Most schools round here don’t even give that option. You get a choice between 2 or (rarely) 3 MFL in year 7, and can only ever study one of them to GCSE.

At my (grammar) school back in the day, we did 2 MFL and Latin. And had to carry on with both MFL for GCSE.

MFL degrees assumed most students would be starting with A Level under their belt.

As an alternative to a university MFL degree, you could point your promising students in the direction of the likes of the Alliance Francaise or the Goethe Institut (not sure what the Spanish and Italian equivalent to might be, if they exist).

They offer certificates and diplomas that are internationally recognised.

These MFL threads always divide opinion on the perceived value of a MFL degree, but I do struggle to understand why MFL is viewed lower by some parents vs other humanity subjects, other than the argument of more native speaking students taking the higher grades, therefore more risk in competing. I totally sympathise with those who wish to study but don’t have access.

My DD is a couple of weeks away from finishing her first year of her MFL course in Ireland. She was one of the fortunate ones to have had great access to languages at school, giving her Spanish, French and Mandarin to GCSE. Her course is multi-disciplinary so she continues her learning/interests from A levels (Spanish, history, English and Maths) and adds a Middle Eastern language in Y2. Loves her course.

I don’t know what she’ll do professionally. She doesn’t know, but when questioned (mainly by other parents ‘why MFL’), she responds with ‘coverage’. Her uni peers read her essays and say it’s like doing an English/history degree in Spanish, when the subject matter is hard enough in English, so the standard is robust and challenging.

Can they get work, or compete with other students? I hope so, but of course it’s dependent on the student. The native speakers issue, if you view it as such, is not going away, nor the attitude of some, but she is already able to secure tutor work, has an internship this summer with a Spanish media agency and is au pairing for 5 weeks. Her tutor profile is attractive to high achieving students worried about not achieving top grades this summer. As a non native, she coaches them to focus on their own skills, breaking down the marks schemes and addressing the gaps. I think it becomes less of an issue once in an UG programme, from her anecdotal experience.

Sorry this is a long post, but a few posters asked of current experience, and some high predicted humanities students are still being held on securing offers, though this may improve once the Covid bulge passes. However it’s a good tactical move to go MFL or joint honours if they have it in them and enjoy the MFL range; mine got all decisions bar Cambridge well before Xmas last year.

To be brutally honest, MFL are never going to be much of a viable option now in a country where the mother tongue is still the main language for the rest of the world

It's so sad. Most European pupils speak at least 2 or 3 languages fluently. It's just expected and normal to learn languages. You cannot get a decent job otherwise.

My dd is currently on an Erasmus exchange and it's really opened her eyes! And that's despite her being bilingual - but she only speaks two languages fluently!

These MFL threads always divide opinion on the perceived value of a MFL degree, but I do struggle to understand why MFL is viewed lower by some parents vs other humanity subjects

Perhaps because you are 'only' learning a language, whereas you could be studying history or chemistry or whatever IN another language.

When it comes to applying for jobs, there will be many applicants (perhaps less now due to Brexit) who studied a subject and they are bilingual.

Yep, so true.

@Blaueblumen That is absolute rubbish and it’s never what an academic MFL degree offers. You never ever “only” learn a language. As you might have read in this thread, there is a huge array of options. Reading books snd poems in your target language and then the required essays. Doing research into art, culture, politics, history and lots of other aspects of a country or culture (DD looked at women’s art in Algeria) is a really useful skill. It’s absolutely not only a language or two. DD also enjoyed medieval French. What MFLs demonstrate is an enquiring mind whilst learning languages. It’s very sad people simply think MFL grads just speak and translate. As I said earlier, that’s the role of some courses, but not at the higher ranked ones. They really do produce grads who can do anything. And do.

@ealingwestmum
Except the uk doesn’t require MFL skills for most jobs. Very few in fact. So that’s why students don’t bother! Scientists can get jobs. Few firms seem to advertise for engineers who can speak French. They just want the engineers. From anywhere! DD converted to law. It’s her law skills and personal attributes that matter. The MFL degree is the way in. It opened the door.

So how many of these 'decline in applications' are related to the very academic higher ranked courses? How many are for the rest? There are lots of threads on MN about DC wanting to do MFL degrees 'but without the literature or all that other stuff, 'cos that's too hard'.

I'm wondering whether a large proportion of 'on the fence' DC are choosing to apply for something else instead, now that it's so easy to keep up with foreign languages. A lot of universities offer language classes as an extra module (and if not there are plenty externally). You can do cultural exchanges. And in mine (and quite a few colleagues' cases) with the right degrees, albeit when we were still in the EU there are plenty of internships etc abroad.

Perhaps the smaller number doing MFL now are the truly passionate ones? Sad for MFL departments, but not for the majority who have these opportunities too *(again, Brexit caveat!)

Also personally speaking for a lot of 18 year olds who don't have a particular 'burning passion' for any single thing, but want to explore... 'joint honours' are becoming very popular. Of course this means that they only scratch the surface of both, or specialise as they wish but I have seen for example 'French and Computer Science'. My degree personally was finance but we had so many open modules I did mathematics, statistics, international relations, language and found my true passion - programming.
Similarly a lot of people doing 'business and mathematics' took a fair few humanities modules but wouldn't be considered humanities students.

Furthermore, perhaps people think that if they have a true calling for any one of these they can top up with a Master's... so the undergraduate is a 'taster' rather than the be all and end all.

What is the true picture when you delve deeper into the admissions data? Is it just 'pure' degrees?

Yes, it’s good to hear what’s worked for your DD *Tizer. But some people may also actually want to use their language skills and immerse in a different culture. Horses for courses. I do not think mine will start her career in the UK.

i have worked in many multi National companies in the past. And relocated 3 times as part of the role. My husband still works in a sector and hires across non UK markets which includes the need for local language skills. I’ve never disputed the fact that most of the world has the ability to converse in English. But most of the most successful leadership were multi lingual. Brits are just not that way inclined.

That is absolute rubbish and it’s never what an academic MFL degree offers. You never ever “only” learn a language.

Ok, you learn some literature and culture too! But you're not studying Economics in French or Engineering in German. A lot of Europeans DO study an academic subject in English or another language.

I came to the UK to study Economics (in English) but have continued to use my native language skills!

And I agree that most of the successful leaders of global companies are multilingual.

Looking at the top brass of the Fortune 500 most of them seem to be American - not sure how many are multilingual.

I think it's a lot easier to learn a language when you have a use for it. So a lot of the world' population aren't multilingual by a lot of effort. It was all around them. They spoke, read and watched TV in multiple languages. Where I grew up we do a '5 second top to toe' before opening our mouths to determine which one to speak in! :) Even my illiterate grandmother speaks 3 languages.

Anybody who wants to widen their horizons knows that they have to work hard at English, and so they do. It's pretty much the 'world default'. It has the widest availability of academic resources etc (as a programmer), and widely available media like movies and TV shows. In fact there's a joke all of the world's computers run on English!

Those born in Anglophone countries however have to make extra effort - sometimes to not much use. When you can do a crash course and pick up the language as you go along, moving to another country I can see why people don't prioritise it academically.

I do know that in the current cohort of young people we have quite a few have done European tours etc in another country, using their high school MFL and have taken to it like a duck to water. Equally a lot who have gotten tech internships in other EU countries haven't had many issues learning the language. Of course some, like my DP aren't great (he's autistic and languages are one of his weak points, but he's done amazing with one of mine!). But the rest, for 'non multilingual' people have come quite far!

I guess you can get away with English 'at first' to get your foot into the door of the countries. Whereas, if you speak say only Russian and Japanese those aren't going to tide you over in Prague or Australia. Bear in mind as well for shortage professions like tech and HCP there are many recruited from Asian countries who don't speak the language either, and the teams are multicultural in any case. DP's current firm is based in Austria with colleagues from across the EU and the US.

I think tech is nothing much to do with a MFL degree or the Dc that might take these degrees. They are not either or options for many. Again, picking up a language isn’t the same as studying it. It’s just fortunate others learn English very early and of course they are bilingual! That’s why we should value MFL students who have had to make an effort. Many from y7. Not nursery!

The elite universities still offer a decent range of MFLs. They do get the better students overall. I don’t know if any ask for Astars though. Oxford doesn’t. The squeeze is on the lesser RG universities. They are reducing their departments.

I also totally agree that far too many Dc don’t want the literature. I find it a bit narrow in outlook and minimised their skills. Evidence from elite universities seems to suggest few use MFLs at work. It’s like history, English etc. It’s an opening door degree.

I don’t agree with the need for passion. You have to be competent beyond the curriculum for Oxbridge, do the tests, submit an essay, and give decent responses at interview in a way tutors can see you are suitable. Passion isn’t necessary. Nor is umpteen weeks spent abroad or native speaking parents. Students should want to explore numerous aspects of MFLs. They are clearly not tech students with a bolt on MFL course.