Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

My reply was to a PP who said that employers look for language skills.
All I was pointing out is that students who wanted elements of MFL with their degree now have so many options. And the traditional 'practical' advantages of MFL degrees such as work opportunities abroad, speaking another language can be covered by a whole host of other degrees/activities.

Since you claim that MFL is easily interchangeable with any other humanities, then surely those who choose to study it must have passion for it. Otherwise they could just as easily choose something else. Furthermore, even though they are not 'tech students (there's no such thing as a tech degree my dear!) with a bolt on MFL course', according to you MFL gives no special skills anyway. So this also brings us back to the question of WHY anybody should choose to study MFL?
Saying 'they learn X Y Z' is not relevant when you could also learn 'X Y Z' transferable skills in another degree course.

Btw there are quite a few joint honours courses, like these:
https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/spanish-studies-and-computing-bsc-hons-gr44/ 
https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/details/computing-science-and-spanish-bsc/55001664#modules 

looking at the syllabus I'd say it's the Computer Science side they skimp on rather than the language. Looking at 'full' MFL students they have another language, and/or other optional modules to delve deeper into the history and cultural context.

@ReplGirl
what advantage is there in studying history or English or IR over MFLs? Absolutely none. Unless you want to.

At many top universities MFL students have never sought working abroad or see MFLs as a vocation. I don’t see why this is difficult to understand. These degrees open doors as many others do.

Most of us do understand the notion of “tech”. It was used by another poster. Technology is of course largely engineering and science. Stem degrees are not really going to be a forte of MFL students. If stem grads want to do a MFL, that’s great. But MFL grads are respected for their skills but they are not exclusively language and translation.

Do not call me “my dear” you patronising $&@/.

Here’s what Cambridge MFL grads might do. Ditto everywhere else that gives students a wide range of skills.

They also say this.

A Cambridge grad will likely do well regardless of what degree they studied. Just by getting accepted is impressive to employers.

Wow you're really easy to rile up - calm down I'm just a stranger on the internet.

Technology isn't largely engineering and science. There are many non technical roles such as technology sales, project management, etc. Not only that a lot of people even in 'technical' roles don't have a STEM degree and have been trained on the job.

This is relevant because these are exactly the sort of jobs great for people with 'generic' degrees.

Also I'm not sure how you can claim that MFL students have never sought 'working abroad' when a lot of the degrees specifically have a year abroad included. That's one of the main selling points. Of course, maybe your daughter was never interested but speaking to young people with similar degrees (new recruits, career fairs, etc) it's definitely a big part of the appeal.

Also @TizerorFizz even Oxford has it as compulsory!
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/course-listing/modern-languages#:~:text=Modern%20Languages%20students%20spend%20a,experiences%20for%20improving%20language%20competence.

Maybe you will then argue that it's not 'work', a 'placement' but the point is MFL degrees provide international exposure. It can be a major reason for choosing to do one over another degree.

Interesting about the grades being impacted by native speakers.

I teach languages abroad and we use the CEFR system - the level is static and you pass or fail the exam. The student takes the exam when ready too, so in June we will have students from years 8-13 all taking the C1 exam. It seems fairer because the level is the level, it Doesn’t fluctuate depending on the other candidates, but it is a timetabling nightmare with different ages in different levels!

That seems a fairer system for all.

Young people like mine gain experiences abroad because they want to. Not because they have to.

Tech clearly means different things to the poster hear that could argue with a paper bag. On every thread they’re on. Old Street is certainly not full of engineers, SaaS, data/web analytics orgs and so forth look for so much more than just engineers or STEM candidates.

I’m not in the main stream workplace or hire anymore so don’t profess to know what employers want, other than from my anecdotal network but thankfully some of the generalisations from some on here are not true in RL.

uff. Here not hear.

Old Street isn’t full of much when compared to the USA. I posted about Cambridge for the simple reason their destinations are no different to other top universities. Durham, UCL, Oxford snd Bristol plus a few others are very similar. A wide range of destinations and students valued for their analytical and research skills. Plus writing and critical thinking.

@ReplGirl Why do you think I don’t know about the year abroad requirement? I don’t understand why you think I don’t. DD did one in two countries for two MFLs. All MFL students do this.

My dd is currently having the time of her life on her year abroad studying at a Spanish university (part of a joint French and Spanish degree). I don’t know what it will lead her to but I know she loves it so much she hopes to study or work further in Spain after her degree. I’m just glad she has had that opportunity. She has loved languages all through school and I think it’s sad that it could be out of reach of many due to the cost. She received around £2000 Erasmus funding and her student loan (lower here in NI I believe). Thankfully we and grandparents have been able to help her.

I don’t know what your point is Tizer. I could have added Dublin, Berlin, Prague etc etc. Of course there is also SV too, but you don’t need to be based there to be in a tech related field. Or I have just not understood what you are trying to say.

Honestly, I just want those who have any remote interest in applying themselves to languages, to not be deterred by the usual arguments and go for it, in spite of the UK doing its utmost to nail coffin languages to its death. I believe we believe in the same objective, somewhere even if your Dd may have had different end goals to others.

Old Street isn’t full of much when compared to the USA.

What does this comment even mean? Why is a tiny area in London being compared to one of the largest countries in the world?

This is an interesting thread but I wish some posters would stop sniping and just stick with having an open interesting discussion.

I write this as a student of the 90s who I guess doesn't count as a MFL grad because I did joint honours in Economics and French. I very specifically chose my course because I wanted to be able to read and talk about economics in French as well as English. I had zero interest in studying literature (in English or another language) and my A level French didn't contain any French literature (it was very news based - that's the state sector for you) so combine that with my lack of interest in studying literature and it would have been miserable for me.

I spent my 3rd year at a grande ecole in Paris studying law and economics etc in French. I was the only student on my U.K. course who didn't have a French parent or family link to France. I only started learning French at (state) school from age 11. I also took German (and did Italian in the evenings) but could only choose one language in my options so that was French. I then started Spanish when I was taking my A levels but I was applying to Cambridge so we decided that doing 5 A levels of which 1 of them would be Spanish from scratch in less than 2 years might not be good for my grades. So I just stuck with 4 A levels and didn't pursue A level Spanish. In the end I decided against Cambridge because their Economics would run completely separate to their Modern & Medieval Languages and even at 17 I was very clear that I wanted to combine my economics study with my language study. Teenagers eh?🙄

I have used my French in many of my jobs over the years and it has definitely added value but it has never been a pre-requisite for any of my employers. At first they were more interested in my economics/social sciences (or me just having a degree) and then of course it became about my skills/experience rather than degree. However, I rather doggedly persisted with combining my economics/business focus with French and have spent quite a few years working for French companies, both in the UK and in France.

It saddens me greatly that there is such little regard for MFL in the UK. Being a fluent French speaker has added so much to both my career and my personal life. I have always worked in international/global companies and it is very much the norm that everyone speaks at least one other language fluently, has lived overseas etc. I've worked all over the world but I'm now back working in London (walking distance to Old St lol) and the majority of people in my office are non-British, and the few Brits are generally similar to me in that we speak one or more other languages, have lived and worked / studied overseas. Both my office and my industry is very international. That's the default. It makes me wonder how the next generation with no MFL inclination will fit in. Or maybe the roles will all be taken by non-Brits?

Based purely on my own personal experience, MFL skills only aren't enough. The working world is full of talented people who speak multiple languages fluently and that's just a given.

Based purely on my own personal experience, MFL skills only aren't enough. The working world is full of talented people who speak multiple languages fluently and that's just a given.

Exactly this.

My dc is currently studying Economics in an EU country as part of an Erasmus exchange. There are lots of students who speak several languages AND have a degree in a business/economics/finance degree.

* I* write this as a student of the 90s who I guess doesn't count as a MFL grad because I did joint honours in Economics and French. I very specifically chose my course because I wanted to be able to read and talk about economics in French as well as English.

I am also a graduate of the 90s who studied abroad (in the UK) and have used both my degree skills as well as my bilingualism successfully,

I've taught ESOL / EFL for 27 years - SO many students speak more than one or two other languages in the EU and rest of the world.

My DDs A level Spanish class has 6 students!!

She's going on to do a language at uni but I don't know anyone else from her year who is.

It's very depressing

To me the key distinction here is 'MFL as an academic subject' and being multilingual. And by 'MFL' I mean taking a degree that is at least MFL joint honours, presumably including a significant cultural study component.

I work with a lot of young people. While very few had done MFL as part of their degree a significant number had learnt/were learning a second language. There's quite a bit of 'career break to travel/volunteer', but also a lot of people taking short contracts abroad. I also see a lot of foreign internships/placements abroad no matter the degree subject. The Erasmus program wasn't just for MFL.

Therefore a drop in MFL degrees doesn't necessarily indicate a drop in regard for languages - could be the opposite. People have more opportunities to go abroad regardless of degree choice, so they don't need to pick MFL degrees to fulfil those goals. DC who are truly interested in language will of course continue to pick it.

People have more opportunities to go abroad regardless of degree choice, so they don't need to pick MFL degrees to fulfil those goals.

Absolutely. But that can only happen if we raise our children in the UK from early age to learn and value languages! The first few years are especially important

Therefore a drop in MFL degrees doesn't necessarily indicate a drop in regard for languages - could be the opposite. People have more opportunities to go abroad regardless of degree choice, so they don't need to pick MFL degrees to fulfil those goals. DC who are truly interested in language will of course continue to pick it.

A greater range of degrees with a language component can't account for the drop off in the number of students studying languages in schools. I took my A levels in the 1980s. 18 of us in my year group at school took A level French. I recently heard through the grapevine that my old school no longer offers A level French (and it's the only secondary school in the town). When I did my O levels, approximately 50-60 students in my year group at school took two languages at O level. DD is in her second year at university and attended a school broadly similar in size to mine with a good academic track record by the standard of comprehensives. Just five students in her year group opted to take two languages at GCSE. We have since heard that taking two languages at GCSE is no longer possible at DD's old school.

DC who are truly interested in language will of course continue to pick it.

Not if it isn't available at school/college they won't.

I can personally think of an example of a student who would very much have liked to take French to A level, but didn't because her school no longer offered A level French. Students in more rural areas don't necessarily have a wide range of sixth form options available to them. The ability to take a language at A level may be dependent on their existing school offering the opportunity.

My daughter has had to take A level French online as it wasn't available at 6th form. Despite this she's hopefully off to do a MFL degree in September.

Perhaps it may one day make a turn around however jn all the international companies I've worked for we just hire a native speaker (and I studied two other languages as did my sibling who is fluent in three language now)

Since I studied languages, the amount of native speaking dc at British's schools even from primary, means that you've literally no chance up against them for a good grade or a job.
This is a good thing I suppose for the U.K. but a bit rubbish when you go to lengths to learn the language and study it at university only to find it's not going to be overly useful anyway. Better off doing a different degree and living in whichever country where you'd want to speak that language. My sibling did manage to get a job in a German company in the U.K. but she wouldn't have needed a MFL degree to do the job only a degree plus fluency in the language.

The difference now is perhaps as less Europeans come here maybe this might mean people may have more opening when less EU staff are available with these languages. Obviously this won't apply to language outside the eu though!