Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

Would you, in charge of a dwindling school budget, allow an A level subject to run on 2 students? I have two DSs who loved languages and value them highly but the reality is that this is not a picture amongst many children and their parents. The schools didn't begin this. I agree STEM is over emphasise - at the expense of the arts , too. But I am not convinced the schools started that. Where are Rishis Sunak's proclamations on the value of languages?

Wrong whipping pony.

Thank you, @TizerorFizz .

I accept that when schools are in such dire straits cutting A level subjects with insufficient enrolment is low hanging fruit - and this sadly includes FM as well as MFL.

I think of MFL as excellent preparation for a variety of careers, and Pure Maths the same way. After last posting I realised it is entirely predictable that Pure Maths is the most vulnerable STEM area, as it is the most purely educational. Graduates who have focussed in this area do very well but they don’t have the obviously defined career pathway of other STEM graduates; they mainly excel at thinking things through (and have a body of knowledge, of course).

The war between subjects is awful. The functional, training-orientated outlook in the universities is shortsighted. There is nothing wrong with preferring a training pathway to an educational one (and I do not think the preference should be used to shove people into socioeconomic classes) but that’s not the historical role of the university.

Must say I haven't noticed this about further maths!

Yes,@Piggywaspushed . The Advanced Maths Support Network exists largely to provide support to those who cannot otherwise access FM. However the AMSN also provides other support activities.

Late to this thread, but it makes interesting reading. I share your frustration OP (another despairing languages grad here). It’s such a depressing situation, and both the education system and wider British attitudes to languages are massively letting kids down.

The MFL (Spanish) teaching at DD’s primary is lamentable; they used to offer weekly sessions in KS1 but this was dropped last year due to a combination of lack of funding and the overstuffed curriculum. Among the parents I’m pretty sure I’m the only person who has noticed. I volunteer in KS2 at the school and the teacher whose class I’m in giggles her way through every Spanish ‘lesson’ - she refuses to actually say anything as she knows literally no Spanish and instead clicks through a PowerPoint while calling on a pupil who has some very rudimentary knowledge to read the words. (I’ve offered to teach it for her but am not allowed as not officially employed by the school).

Then at secondary level the system seems so piecemeal; no one can decide which language/s to prioritise so very often the kids start off doing a completely different language to the one they’ve been exposed to at primary. As others have said, languages are seen as excessively challenging and not all that useful, so even my generally very well-educated friends with teens have encouraged them to opt out of them at the earliest possible point in favour of ‘easier’ subjects that will ultimately boost their grades. Everything in education now is about hoop-jumping, functional skills and employability, and MFL often don’t factor straightforwardly into these priorities.

There’s also a prevailing attitude that MFL are a ‘nice to have’ hobby pursuit for holidays etc that can be picked up via a couple of months of Duolingo sessions. There’s very little understanding of the many useful transferable skills that studying languages can bring, or of the importance of cross-cultural understanding generally. The upshot is that Britain as a country becomes ever more insular and isolated.

My own DD is only six and I’m keen to get her started on a language soon (ideally Spanish), but I’m really struggling to find any fun language-based clubs or activities locally - and I’m in London, where you’d think this would be reasonably straightforward! It seems to be formal 1:1 tuition (often via Zoom) or nothing.

My mum was at Sheffield in the 1960s. She had a BA in French & Spanish but was obliged to take Latin & Greek as minor subjects in order to pass. I can't believe it has come to this. I understand the former polys dropping humanities courses, but it feels much more tragic when the redbricks are doing the same.

There’s also a prevailing attitude that MFL are a ‘nice to have’ hobby pursuit for holidays etc that can be picked up via a couple of months of Duolingo sessions. There’s very little understanding of the many useful transferable skills that studying languages can bring, or of the importance of cross-cultural understanding generally. The upshot is that Britain as a country becomes ever more insular and isolated.

This is sadly very true.

Having raised our children bilingually, I know how MUCH effort and language exposure is needed to become fluent.

I actually find it shocking that 14 year olds can drop ALL foreign languages and don't need one for at least GSCE?

The literature bias at A'Level nearly destroyed my love of French. Likewise English A'Level at that time so I didn't even take it and I wouldn't have taken French if I'd known. I'd got A's in Engish Language and French at O'Levels. It was such a shame.

A lot changed in the EU in 1992 with the Maasricht Treaty and in preparation for closer European ties, our firm offered French tuition with a business bias for any French speakers. It was brilliant and has been quite useful since.

The second language options were German or Latin. I took Latin but I think Spanish would have been better as it's spoken so widely throughout the world.

It's a real shame that languages seem to bedying in education, not least because (imo) it's a good learning discipline. And the loss of the Erasmus scheme is another crime of Brexit.

DD had an offer from Cardiff for law and French in 2025 which was withdrawn this week as they have decided to discontinue the course - they said with immediate effect so presumably for 2024 entry too. This came after ucas closing. Her other choices included Kent where it looks like the course could be in jeopardy too.
She's planning an army career and mfl will be very useful for her intended path.
Such a shame that so much in education is so undervalued by those that control the finances.

The literature and culture modules are vital or you end up with training for a job which probably doesn’t exist now. The fact people don’t want literature means it’s not an academic course. Therefore won’t compete with other academic courses at the best unis eg history, law etc. It’s vital to keep the academic element there. This is what develops critical thinking skills and other skills needed in the workplace. MFL grads look at a lot of careers now but translation has mostly gone.

My DD with a degree in MFL did nothing at primary. Maybe MFLs are what brighter dc can do from scratch? No parents helping with MFL here! It’s certainly an academic area fewer and fewer are able to access. The Ebacc was supposed to have MFL but no one cares about a broad education so it’s more or less binned.

Any school with 2 wanting to do a MFL should ask why this has happened? The students have presumably chosen something easier and the school didn’t care. For their reasons. Not purely for the interests of DC.

I don't think it's been helped by the reporting of this in the media. So many articles over the last, what?, 20 years that languages are hard subjects, perception that Spanish is the easiest, then French and German? Don't even think about it!

So it becomes a vicious circle. For some science, maths, English literature etc are hard. But the perception has been we need more science and maths students (true) and so they are encouraged (good). But that's not been the way the narrative is pushed re MFL. It's seen as expendable.

How will there be MFL teachers widely available in future if no one is learning them at school?

I think that's sweeping if you don't include literature it's not academic. I daresay you're speaking from the perspective of someone who finds literature easy.

Why not include studies of other country's history, culture, politics, economics, philosophy etc? I did a degree in classics and these aspects were studied for Ancient Greek and Rome as well as the literature.

Also large amounts of MFL literature is studied using translated texts and so really just becomes English literature. Well to most intents and purposes.

Such a shame that so much in education is so undervalued by those that control the finances.

In regards to languages i don't think it's to do with money.

It's to do with the attitude of soo many English speakers. They go abroad and expect everyone to speak English. Not even a "Do you speak English?" but simply "One beer please". It's shameful imo.

Also the preponderance of Hollywood films and tv, songs at Eurovision etc and various other institutions using English adds to that thought.

Not just shameful but short sighted

@Bluegetaniums my DD is in Portugal on work experience- not language related. But she did want to try. So she goes around with her rudimentary Duolingo Portuguese and they just look at her and answer in English.

@tobee
Not sure DD found literature easy. She had to work at it. I don’t have a degree so I’m not relevant but my Eng lit was a 6 back in the day (lowest pass grade) and 7 in French which was a fail at O level. I fully admit I’m pretty average.

DD had to work: full stop! She wasn’t tutored in a MFL from birth like many others. Too many just want to continue in a narrow spectrum they are familiar with and don’t want literature. Would you get to drop a section of a medical degree because you didn’t fancy it? Obviously not but picking the easy bits of a MFL degree is ok. In my view it diminishes the degree and there’s a reason why the top unis continue with literature.

Quite frankly, some DC have to work at it all to succeed. Obviously there are other forms of learning which academic courses incorporate but the backbone of academic MFL degrees is still literature and not just doing more speaking and translating which many have done with bilingual parents. Very many people who comment on MFL threads have dual nationality and dc are bilingual already so they can then opt for an easy degree with no literature. Is this right?

Don’t you think it says more about grads who start from scratch and don’t duck the harder elements of learning? Time and time again MFL questions on MN are about not doing literature and just doing language. To keep numbers up, unis tend to agree or offer three languages. So less in depth study.

There has to be a difference between French as an add on to a business degree at a former poly and a full MFL joint degree at an academic uni - surely?

MFL is definitely suffering in my experience of state secondary education.

I did 2 language A levels and loved them. I went to Durham.

My dd wanted to take A Level French (she had a grade 9 at GCSE) however due to only 4 or 5 students wanting to sit it, her strong state 6th form did not offer it at all.

We are now paying £90 a week (hard earned, not petty cash to us at all) for her to do AS French online with a tutor.

The sting is that the tutor has told her she ought to do a full A Level. (She's due hopefully A or A star grades in the 3 she's doing at college.) Sadly, we can't afford £180 a week, and we've had to say no.

Such a shame.

@gerbo I do wonder why schools cannot collaborate on MFL teaching? Put dc together from different schools? What are linguists supposed to do? Become chemists? Or artists? Why should their needs be ignored? I assume you didn’t have another 6th form. I would have been furious.

I know, it's so unacceptable. One student went to a different college to be able to take French.

My dd's college is 'outstanding' and attached to her secondary school so it would've been a huge decision to leave. Plus my dd is hoping to study English at uni, but loves and is gifted at French.

It's a sad, little Britain, state of affairs. Two of my closest friends at Durham studied languages; certainly a bonus in their careers over the years.

And yes, I was baffled by the decision. The other student's mother really fought for them to run a course but no luck.

Now I'm really kicking myself as apparently a full A Level is doable!

It’s a very sorry state of affairs. People like me didn’t even know DD was good at MFL until we went to her first parents’ evening and the teacher was amazed she had not done French before. He said everyone else had because they had been at prep schools. By year 8 they had her down as a linguist. Her life would be very different if she hadn’t been encouraged to do what she appeared to be good at. I find it disappointing state schools don’t pool resources though. It must be the way forward.

Well, the drive for STEM is rather pushing linguists to become chemists, yes. Artists, not so much.

The idea of schools pooling resources to teach only works in areas with consortium schools (these do exist) or MATs where there are schools nearby , where finances are in some ways shared (remember there are no LAs any more really) and where nearby schools actually offer MFL (not often true). Lessons are an hour long on the whole so the travel aspect isn't even feasible.

This could be something private schools offered as part of their 'charitable status' but I've yet to see anything like that.

My DS chose to stay in his current school and not do Spanish , rather than move schools. It was the right choice in the end - he sacrificed the chance to do Spanish for excellent economics and history teaching he might not have got at my school.

DS large, outstanding 6th form college where there are eg. 200+ doing Chemistry and 100+ doing Physics there are around 40 studying Spanish, 30 French and... 7 German. And he's going there because it's about the only good, non-private place in the whole of North London that does German A level.

It does mean smaller class sizes, so you're pretty much getting private school provision, but what it means for the future of University MFL (and beyond) is not good.

It's also not great for all the kids who are shepherded into STEM because a) not all of them will be that good at it (or like it that much); b) they'll be up against all the people who are good at it for all these magical STEM university places and jobs. It's all so short-sighted as well as insular.

We are fortunate that our comp is happy to run mfl for very small numbers at A level. It's quite big, not Sixth Form College big mind you. They are focussed on being a provider for the community and so if 3 people want to do French they will still run it. I assume the size allows some cross subsidy from big classes in psychology, history, etc.
We have more students taking German than either French or Spanish!