Talk sense to me about DD not applying to Oxbridge

[MixedFeeling]

DD is very strong academically, straight 9s at GCSE and on track for 4 A stars at A level. She wants to study psychology.

I’d always imagined she might apply to Oxford or Cambridge but yesterday she told me that she doesn’t want to. Her reasons are that she thinks it will be stressful, that she thinks the other students will be too serious and she wants to be in a bigger city with more going on. On her list are Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Leeds.

WWYD? I don’t know whether I should just leave it or ask her to give it more thought- I think she’s wrong about Oxbridge students all being serious and it being especially stressful (DH and I were both at Cambridge and that was certainly not our experience- our friends were a mixed bag and the tutorial system was very supportive. Nb I’m aware that the fact we were both there has probably subconsciously informed our expectations for DD.)

Obviously the choice is hers ultimately. But I don’t want her to decide based on false information or fear of failure and then regret it. Keep talking or leave it?

There is a psychology and behavioural sciences BA at Cambridge which is accredited by the BPS, it's not a BSc I seem to remember but it does offer graduate entry to the BPS so you could do clinical psych afterwards, it's the same as any other psychology degree.

Funnily enough, it passed me by because it is by any definition rude to tell a stranger you are not interested in what they think. Maybe you need to look at your own “spin.”

@Mirabai and @walkaround this is a little stressful. Can you take the spat elsewhere?

Tbh, it is quite pressurised, and tbf, DS (who does it as part of a joint honours) does work way harder than a sibling at a non Oxbridge uni in order to gain similar grades.

There’s more work in a shorter timespan. That can cut both ways: some students are looking for a more relaxed uni experience; while others find even top red bricks a bit too laid back and understimulating. Very much depends on the course - a friend of mine’s DD chose Edinburgh over Oxford for engineering as the course was more exciting, with more hands on experience.

Eh? It’s over afaic.

🤣Sorry!

I'd love to know which course nephew is on at Bristol because that is of course total nonsense. I think hebis winding you/your DDs up

On Bristol it will depend on the subject. One of my twins did Geography BSc, lots of work, expeditions away etc and his twin BA ancient history - less work week by week.

Nephew may not be winding them up. Drama at exeter required 2 essays a term. Compared with two a week for English at Cambridge. Naturally the drama requires some performance so it's comparing apples and oranges. But it's entirely possible your nephew is indeed delighted with a light workload!

Basically I think knits hard to underestimate the level of work required on at least some Oxbridge courses. Added to the essay workload, remember these are entirely self researched (there's a reason you still 'read' for a degree), and you must justify your work in a Supervision or Tutorial, so you need to know your stuff.
It makes sense that candidates are out through the hoops with extra tests and interviews. You have to be tough to take it!

Why psychology? Dc is doing a masters in psychology and doing verybwell, however they went to a very middling uni. I would have thought PPE or something with those grades. Or Oxford does PPL which is very prestigious. There are a LOT of clinical psychology grads!

Another dc at Exeter doing a humanities degree and she's got very little work. Has a job three days a week and a high level sport and finding it pretty easy to manage

Never understand the love for Bristol on here.

This conversation comes up every year with our 6th form and our Head of Sixth Form does offer Oxbridge as an option but certainly doesn't pressure it for many reasons.

1. We both had some from our own friendship group go way back when we were at the age and several moved; the pressure then was immense and one of the Head of Sixth Forms friends committed suicide.
2. I know 4 students who left by the end of their first year and transferred.
3. We've taken many group trips to both and a lot of our students felt very out of place; Manchester in areas of high deprivation. Some students are also scared to be away from somewhere very diverse as they fear racism (despite us reassuring them).
4. Poor experiences of former students. I'm Chemistry and I've had feedback from former pupils that it isn't the "science dream" they expected, whereas Manchester, UCL, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow is.

Please don't think I am against Oxbridge, but it is for a particular type of person. It wouldn't be for me at all.

As a school representative I’m really shocked at this attitude and reasoning.

You are potentially allowing your own thoughts and prejudice to seep into the message you give your brightest students about something they might rightly really aspire to have a go at. It could change their lives.

People don’t ‘commit suicide’ they die by suicide. As a school teacher you should know the right language. Sadly death by suicide is the biggest killer of under 35s and it is not solely an oxbridge issue and insane to suggest it is.

You have completely misunderstood what I wrote. None of what I have said here is shared with students. I have no prejudice, I simply do not think Oxbridge is the best option for many students.

I said we don't pressurise applications to it as is seen in many schools chasing the prestige of having a high number of applicants and a high rate of acceptance to Oxbridge. Of course we have students going there, we take visits every year and we support applications, but we don't hot house them like you can see in other schools and colleges.

As for the language I use, I am genuinely sitting with documentation on my desk from our LA with that language in it as I am the school DSL. That is the language used in that, and was on the last report in my previous school where a student died by suicide. It is commonly used and not meant offensively.

None of my previous message suggested that suicide was an Oxbridge issue; I stated a fact in our Head of Sixth Forms experience.

Your response to me has honestly baffled me.

Your LA is officially using ‘committed suicide’? I’m really shocked at that. It is no longer considered appropriate language. It is not illegal to take your own life.

You said things like ‘one of the heads of six form had a friend take their one life at oxbridge’ as a context for your stance of applications. Surely you can see that’s hardly a well thought out response.

Of course oxbridge isn’t for everyone and you have to be robust to go through the process. But that’s about honesty and selection of the right candidates. I found your reasoning to be weak.

I made the choice your DD is making and I regretted it ever since.

Shes saying this because she’s exhausted and needs a break. Help her plan a break/gap year.

She wants to have fun. Yes there will be lots of hard workers at Oxford/Cambridge but it seems to me that only the brightest and best go there, the social opportunities are unparalleled and, I heard they have a lot of party fun as well, nobody’s missing out unless they want to. Make sure the break you plan with her has fun built it.

Help her remember she’ll have tons of holidays, tons of friends outside of Uni still, and she will never have this chance again.

What about applying and just taking it step by step, no pressure, that way she is still in the game but not feeling like she has yet another massive academic hurdle facing her when she’s already feeling the burn of all that achieving she’s already doing.

I wish I’d had the support of wiser elders when I was making this choice. I was just left to it.

It seems like you feel my comments are a personal attack; they aren't. Neither are they there for your judgement and conclusion of them being weak. I have nothing against Oxbridge, my ex and biological parent of my DDs went to Oxford.

I stated our experiences that are something that aren't considered by those soley focused on the prestige of Oxbridge, or the fact that the family attended. Our head of sixth is always going to have that worry though, as that is her experience. People have very different experiences, so I offered them up as reasons that some people would not pressure their children to do so. I discussed Oxbridge with my own DD without any of what I said here but it was never an option she wanted to explore as she wants a large city.

She’s an adult leave her to it.

Just so you never get this notion in your head again I remember one social climber whose dd was just an accessory/ boasting piece to one up her friends with wittering on about “DD IS reading whatever at Oxford blah blah” for the fiftieth time and there was a very noticeable eye roll from her “friends”.

@Whyarewehardofthinking - Is your head of sixth form worried about the number of suicides at Bristol, and universities in general? Oxford actually comes 2nd in the HUMEN mental health league table.

It seems unprofessional to base an approach to an educational institution on an event in one’s personal life, which may have had nothing to do with the university.

I’m not sure what “not hothousing” Oxbridge candidates means. I really hope it doesn’t mean failing to prepare them thoroughly as other institutions do.

What big cities have to offer is on offer regardless of whether or not you are a student there, so you can experience that any time, whereas the student experience of Oxford and Cambridge is nothing like the experience you would get as a non-student/academic resident living there. For some people, that is precisely what they find off putting. For others, it is the fact that it is an experience you will likely only ever get if you are a student there for a few years that makes it so special. You have your whole life ahead of you to experience life in big cities should you want to, but only a few short years to experience life as an Oxford or Cambridge student. Many Oxbridge students subsequently get graduate jobs in big cities and experience all the benefits of city life, then, in any event, so they are not the ones missing out.

As for what is on offer at Oxford and Cambridge, the phenomenal range of clubs, societies and activities on offer, both within the colleges and at university level, gives the lie to the assertion that their students are all too stressed, serious and hard working to have time to have fun or do anything other than academic study.

No, Oxford and Cambridge are not the be all and end all, they can certainly appear intimidating from the outside, but they do offer some world class degrees and a very different method of teaching which suits some more than others, and I don’t think other UK universities can actually compete with the variety of extra-curricular opportunities they have on offer. And in a time of strikes, college life and a tutorial system can seem more appealing - the strikes are against the universities, not the colleges, so college tutoring largely continues as normal, making an Oxford or Cambridge degree currently much better value for money than elsewhere. You are never short of academic feedback if you see and talk to your tutors every week.

I do find the comment about being 'lazy' and Oxbridge not too taxing for one of the posters.

I wonder whether people who didn't enjoy Oxbridge are those, who maybe very bright, were also those who are perfectionistic and extremely hard working (but who might buckle under the intense pressure, developing MH issues).

What I mean by that is that if you're very bright AND work hard you might (with tutoring options and resources available nowadays) achieve the A-levels needed to get in but, unless you are one of those people who find learning very easy and can churn out exceptional work without too much time devoted to it (combined with using smart strategies of doing what's needed rather than doing it all), maybe those are the ones who are more naturally suited to somewhere like Oxbridge? At most super selective schools you are likely to have a combination of these types.

Basically, I think when our DC say they don't fancy Oxbridge it's because they perhaps realise that they just aren't the 'type' who would find the pressurised environment easy to deal with and they're just sensible in making their own decisions.

Well, you most definitely cannot read everything on an Oxford reading list each week, but nor are you expected to - they make that clear at the start. If you are a perfectionist who is used to being told you are brilliant, though, it may therefore be extremely hard to calibrate how much work you actually need to do when you end up in an environment where you are no longer told how clever you are all the time and, instead, are expected to take on critical feedback. The feedback is intended to be constructive, but, to a perfectionist, might be interpreted as an indication they are inadequate and need to work harder, to the point that they are no longer enjoying what they do and feel exhausted trying to attain a totally unrealistic standard. I had one friend who did this to herself - didn’t enjoy her degree, wished she was somewhere else, worked harder than she wanted to and socialised less than she would have liked, all because she thought she was struggling to keep up. When she got a First, she was incredibly surprised and said she wished she had realised she was doing so well, as then she would have been able to enjoy herself more and still likely have got a good degree out of it.

My daughter could apply to Oxbridge but doesn't want to, wants a bit of a life outside of studying, wants a part time job when at uni which you can't have at Oxbridge and just wants to choose a uni she feels happy with, I'll support whatever she wants, it's her life not mine.