Talk sense to me about DD not applying to Oxbridge

[MixedFeeling]

DD is very strong academically, straight 9s at GCSE and on track for 4 A stars at A level. She wants to study psychology.

I’d always imagined she might apply to Oxford or Cambridge but yesterday she told me that she doesn’t want to. Her reasons are that she thinks it will be stressful, that she thinks the other students will be too serious and she wants to be in a bigger city with more going on. On her list are Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Leeds.

WWYD? I don’t know whether I should just leave it or ask her to give it more thought- I think she’s wrong about Oxbridge students all being serious and it being especially stressful (DH and I were both at Cambridge and that was certainly not our experience- our friends were a mixed bag and the tutorial system was very supportive. Nb I’m aware that the fact we were both there has probably subconsciously informed our expectations for DD.)

Obviously the choice is hers ultimately. But I don’t want her to decide based on false information or fear of failure and then regret it. Keep talking or leave it?

Sorry that was to @Hercules12

I am sure that North Staffs Poly had many advantages. But I do think there are unique benefits of Oxbridge.

I remember this was brought home to me when I was studying resulting trusts. My friend was also studying law at Warwick. Excellent university. When I caught up with her in the holidays I happened to glance at her papers and she was reading about the debate between Professor Birks and Professor Swadling on the role of resulting trusts. When I asked her she told me that she had a seminar on this with about 15 other people and then wrote one of her two essays that term on the subject.

I compared that with my experience. I attended a lecture with
Professor Birks explaining his view. I then did the reading, wrote an essay and had a tutorial with me and one other student with Professor Swadling in which I read out my essay and discussed it with him.

I do think that develops unique skills.

That's very fair.

Yes. DS is at Cambridge. It appears that some companies actively target Oxbridge when they’re recruiting. Blind recruitment may be a thing if a role is open to anyone from anywhere but doesn’t stop companies approaching certain unis first to headhunt who they want.

there is no getting away from it, if what you are looking for is someone who has superb drive and dedication , passion for their subject and who has proved that they can handle a super heavy workload successfully, working at a very fast pace, then you are probably going to target Oxbridge first before opening out to other unis. Depends on the role obviously.

as I said, DS is at Cambridge. Totally his idea and he seems an ideal for it thankfully so is doing well so far. He feels it’s a good fit for him. But by God, he works hard. 45 -50 hours a week. He is not a party animal so a little bit of socialising now and again suits him. He had joined a society and a sports club so sees people on those at weekends.

Everyone attends lectures in person, they do video them but it’s expected that you only use them to go over them again if you’ve not quite grasped something/need to check something. They are not recorded so that if you had a heavy night the night before you don’t need to bother going. DS says the lecture halls are full. Everyone is expected to attend. You do need to be very very dedicated to do well there from what I’ve seen so far. Maybe depends on the course. He’s doing Engineering, it’s really very demanding so not for everyone.

A couple of things:

1. It is not 'one spot' on the application form, you have to send the application form in early for Oxbridge, do a specific targetted personal statement, take extra exams or sit essays, my daughter did online exams and an online interview with about four people. It's not just about putting a name in a form. Plus it's about a 1 in 10 or even less chance of getting in for popular subjects so applying does not mean you will go anyway.
2. I am not convinced mental health options are better elsewhere, I'm sure that Oxbridge is very stressful, but I am a lecturer and I would say about a third of my students appear very stressed, need extensions, are on anti-depressants. We have a mental health crisis in the young in the UK and that's evident at all unis- Bristol has had a series of terrible incidents at their uni, and I live in fear I may not pick up something in a student and then they are very ill or die. Universities all have waiting lists for counselling, haven't invested enough resources and many students sit at home and don't attend uni, which is terrible for their mental health.
3. Oxbridge is a good cost option as the terms are short, rents subsidised, so that's a consideration.

Aware of that @Highdaysandholidays1
So tailor the statement to Oxbridge. Most other universities don't read the PS (if the predictions and grades are in order).

Not read whole thread but I was like your DD at school and also decided not to apply to Oxbridge. I wanted to do a joint honours degree which they didn’t offer, and part of that was languages.
I went to a private girls school on a scholarship and they were probably a bit disappointed that I didn’t apply! They prepped students for the Oxbridge entrance exams / interviews and the other reason was that I just could not be bothered with the extra work. I was having a blast during 6th form, doing school plays and lots of extra curricular stuff and I just didn’t have the inclination for extra prep.

finally I found it difficult to decide between the two (O or C), found the college thing confusing and like I said none of the courses really fit what I wanted.

went to a very good uni, Russell Group blah blah, Erasmus year, had the best experience possible. No regrets.

Had no pressure from my lovely parents either.

Mine was the same. She was very much the kind of sixth former who would have been tipped for Oxbridge, decided she didn’t want to apply for a variety of reasons, and is now very happy and doing very well at another university. She doesn’t regret it one little bit.

It’s 20 years since I was at Cambridge so it may have changed, but while I was there two of my friends attempted suicide and 4 other people I knew were self-harming. I don’t know what other unis are like but I do agree that Cambridge is extremely stressful because of the fast pace high expectations and short terms. My friends who went to different universities seemed much happier than I was, university was actually the most miserable time of my life.

I would not push her to go if she doesn’t want to.

I would advise your daughter not to study psychology. I know a lady who did a degree and masters in this subject and got work in this area.
The lady I know advised her child not to psychology because she need at least a master's to get a job and that it's hard to get work in. She also knew someone with a PhD in this and after studying for 7 years there starting salary was very poor.

Also with the cost of college your daughter could end up with a lot of debt and this will effect her ability say to borrow down the line for a house.
I know parents who are encouraging their children to do courses towards a particular job or industry where a degree or master's will give them a good starting salary. Some courses offer work experience in their subject area and this can help with job hunting later.

I know people who got work experience like this and were offered jobs when finished their degree. Some companies will pay for their masters after a period of time but the person has to remain in the company for X period of time after this.

I'm a psychologist. I did my undergrad at an RG uni, masters at Cambridge and doctorate at UCL. Of all 3 UCL was by far the best in terms of teaching and support.

Other that being able to say 'my child goes to Oxbridge' what actual detailed benefit do people know that means their specific child is better off there

Do parents know the ins and outs or just go with 'I can brag to their friends/family about it'?

I'm surprised about thise saying not to do psychology. Why?

DN was always top at school. Applied and went to Oxbridge. Didn't enjoy it, too pressured. Moved to red brick university for pHd and was much happier....

What a horrible comment

whilst being fully aware that oxbridge is not the be all and end all nor always the best education available for any given subject, it is insulting and a bit childish to suggest it isn’t a place where many students achieve an incredible education and academic experience.

Most parents simply want their children to thrive. Some will thrive at oxbridge. Some won’t. Knowing your child and/or trusting them to know themselves is important.

It is also ok to be proud of those who get to oxbridge and work hard to get a good degree from there. And that’s not about a supervisor bragging right.

I think you need to ask yourself, what would she get out of Cambridge or Oxford that she wouldn't get from elsewhere? And inversely, what would she get from elsewhere? Basically, you need to be a bit more open minded, your student experience may not suit her. Cambridge is beautiful, but it is so small, if she wants a bigger city experience, then she is going to be disappointed. She sounds very mature, and those are solid reasons not to do Cambridge or Oxford, you should listen.

I went to Oxford in the early 90s and had a whale of a time. Workload was totally manageable tbh. I think it's very different these days. I have a very bright Y13 dd who thought about applying (partly because she loves the city itself- we used to live nearby). She ended up deciding not to because she didn't think she had the necessary drive and work ethic. I think she was right, though she made the decision with a heavy heart.

Because I loved it there myself, and a bit because of the prestige, it took some effort on my part to resist encouraging her to do it. But I was right not to. She's hopefully going to York.

Eh. She can always do her Master's at Oxbridge if she's that good and fancies it, no?

My Oxford experience is decades old so ... but people were just people and I certainly didn't work very hard and still got a (not very good lol) degree. No doubt varies by course though and I get the impression students work a bit more nowadays.

If she is worried about hard work I would say don't knock it till you've tried it, anyway. That's the key to getting in in life, being prepared to organise yourself and apply yourself. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, all involves hard work, as does reaching senior levels in engineering disciplines.

Your DD is smart enough to know her own mind, OP.

I disagree with your DH that Oxbridge is just the fifth entry on the UCAS form. As PPs have said, the deadline is early, there are university-required exams to sit, etc. Potentially the worst thing is the pressure DD may face from school if not at home if she is offered a place. Unpleasant and unnecessary.

I don't think it was a horrible comment @Sausagerolex. I did get a teeny bit of a "bragging right" vibe from the OP TBH.

And there are definitely parents who do this.

Interestingly, the most targeted university in England by employers is Manchester.

Similar DD here with similar views and with teachers gently pressing her to apply to Oxbridge. In her view Oxbridge courses were not good enough. She is to study a niche subject and Oxbridge had a kinda hybrid version. I took the view that it's her decision and she has done her research.

She is currently at the stage of deciding her top two universities. It is so tempting to try and influence but fundamentally she has to attend for the next 3 years so she needs to be happy. I think as long as you are happy that she did her research and her decision is based on this research you have to let her choose.

And schools definitely push students towards Oxbridge for bragging rights.

I think she’s very wise. Lots of kids get blinded by the reputation and the fancy buildings and don’t consider whether its
really truly right for them- I had some wonderful times there but also really suffered from the stress and the mental health support (both from the uni and local nhs services) was shocking. Sure it gives you an edge if you want to be prime minister or work for an incredibly prestigious law firm, but not everybody wants to do that. I think if you have more standard career aspirations you have to consider if it’s really worth it.

Worrying about not getting in is a legitimate fear, and one that everyone shares. If she is ambivalent about going to Oxbridge, is it worth putting her through the angst that inevitably accompanies the application? Has she actually visited, been to open days, heard from admissions tutors and tutors in her subject? If she gets inspired, she might want to try, but it really is an emotional rollercoaster and one that they have to commit to for themselves, not because someone else thinks it is a good idea.
2 of my DC went Oxbridge and one decided it just wasn't right for her and didn't apply. She was absolutely right - she couldn't find a course that suited her, and didn't want the academic intensity. She went to Bristol, with a bonus music scholarship and spent half her time in the music dept, building a wonderful alternative skillset that sees her travelling internationally outside her day-job. Bristol also made them do a (much hated but incredibly useful) employability skills course in their last year - there was nothing like that at Oxbridge.
Trust your daughter to make the right decision for herself, and if she feels she has missed out on the Oxbridge experience, she can always go there for postgraduate study.

I've said this before, but isn't it strange how young people are encouraged to really think about the type of university they want to go to- campus or not, lively city or somewhere smaller, look at the course for the subject they want to study, visit to get a 'feel' for a place etc., but then if they are Oxbridge 'material' lots of people think they should go just because they can, regardless of if it fits what they want.